Edwin William Ryan born 1914 Auckland (linked to Sidney Rowe?)and brother Winton

[PatsyAnnKelly]

Hello Again
I hope that it is not too much of an imposition to ask for the help of this great group again? I received such  a huge amount of assistance before that it was possible to complete the thread and make contact with living family members.
This time my query is linked, in that the above named was the son of a Violet Harvie Sweet who in 1910/1911 was being divorced by her then husband Frank Turner citing Sidney Rowe as co-respondent. Subsequently Violet and Sydney were said ( in the divorce papers) to be cohabiting in Auckland under the name of Harvey/Harvey. Violet gave birth to a son Winton Herbert Ryan in 1911 some 5 or 6 months after the divorce was finalised. The father's name was not recorded on his birth certificate so I am uncertain whether he was the child of Sidney Rowe ( who may also have been calling himself Ryan) or of her husband Frank Turner. He went by the name Ryan all his life although in 1935 he changed it to Turner by Deed Poll. He never used the surname  Turner even in what became a distinguished military career, so it is a mystery as to why he changed it.
In 1914 she gave birth to a second son, Edwin William Ryan and on the birth certificate the father was recorded as Sydney (presumably Ryan).
Violet and Sidney/Sydney Rowe/Ryan were together until at least 1915 as on his  WW1 military attestation papers he gave her name and address as his wife. They must have separated, as in 1917 Sidney married someone else,  and in 1918 Violet married a Daniel Ryan about whom I can find nothing. She later divorced him and married an Edwards.
They all seem to have stayed in and around Auckland for a considerable time.
As I am researching from the UK I cannot access the voters records so can't find where Violet and Sydney were living from 1911 until 1916 and what names they went under. At least one of the children must have attended school and I wonder what name was used . Where the name Ryan appeared from in 1911 and 1914 well before a Daniel Ryan featured I do not know. All I do know from the previous research into the Rowe family is that they used aliases from time to time so it may have been standard behaviour for them. Sydney/Sidney had a brother named Mark Daniel Rowe, and brothers William and Herbert whose names were used as middle names by the two boys leading me to think they may both have been Sidney's.
It seems that Winton and Edwin did not keep in contact with each other probably from the time they went into the Army in WW2
Any help or advice would again be very much appreciated.
Best wishes
PatsyAnn

[Lucy2]

Link to previous thread  ( Sidney ROWE )   > >

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813873.0

   ~  Lu

 

[Lucy2]

....
This time my query is linked, in that the above named was the son of a Violet Harvie Sweet who in 1910/1911 was being divorced by her then husband Frank Turner citing Sidney Rowe as co-respondent.

Subsequently Violet and Sydney were said ( in the divorce papers) to be cohabiting in Auckland under the name of Harvey/Harvey.

Just for clarification regarding the divorce mentioned above, the NZ Marriage index has the following listing >

Frank TURNER
Violet Sweet HARVIE   
Year:  1903

[Note:  The bride's surname is recorded as "HARVIE" :  ]

    ~  Lu

[Lucy2]

.....  and in 1918 Violet married a Daniel Ryan about whom I can find nothing. She later divorced him and married an Edwards.

Hi ... do you not have a copy of the 1918 marriage of Violet to Daniel RYAN  

      ~  Lu 


Edited to add :   Can find no marriage to an "EDWARDS" ?     The next recorded NZ marriage for Violet Sweet RYAN is in 1931 to Henry Ernest ARMSTRONG.

[mckha489]

1919 Violet Sweet Ryan and Daniel Ryan, 46 Commercial Road, Grey Lynn, Auckland.
Daniel is a Saddler

1928 Violet Sweet Ryan, married, 26 Graham Street, Auckland Central.  No Daniel.

[PatsyAnnKelly]

Hi All
Thanks for the info.
No I do not have a copy of the marriage cert between Violet Sweet and Daniel Ryan but thank you for the info. relating to him I just knew that they married in 1918.
 I knew nothing about him other than that she married him. I am really puzzled that she seemed to give her sons the surname Ryan well before Daniel Ryan was with her, whilst she was living with Sydney Rowe in Auckland  from 1911, together as Mr and Mrs Harvey ( albeit her maiden name was Harvie not Harvey) and giving the name Sydney as the father of Edwin.
Re the Edwards that was my error. Yes it should have been Armstrong.
PatsyAnn

[Lucy2]

Hello PatsyAnn

From NZ Electoral Rolls : 

Mckha489 has already given you the 1919 and 1928 listings for Violet from these rolls.

Violet does NOT appear in 1914 as far as I can see (i.e. using both of her christian names).

However, if you go back and look over the NZ Army attestation form for Sydney ROWE (from your previous thread), you'll see that he has given the address of (his "wife") Violet, as "Te Maru, Matakana".    There is a later alteration to add a new address for Violet, which is given as "5 Princes Street", Grey Lynn".

The 1911 Electoral roll for Manukau, Auckland, has Violet as follows >

TURNER - Violet Sweet - Princes Street - married
TURNER - Frank - Princes Street - coppersmith
[SO at the time of the 1911 parliamentary election, the record (listing) had not been altered to reflect the fact that either Violet, or her former spouse, Frank TURNER, were still residing at that address.  ]

As I said earlier, can't find Violet on 1914 rolls, but her former husband Frank has a change of address by then .
1914 - Parnell, Auckland, Electoral roll :
TURNER - Frank - York Street, Newmarket - coppersmith
You don't say whether Violet was granted custody of her children with Frank ?    If she was, then perhaps that was the reason that in 1914 her address was still "Princes Street" ??   [i.e. she continues living in the family home ? ]

   ~  Lu

[Lucy2]

...
  I am really puzzled that she seemed to give her sons the surname Ryan well before Daniel Ryan was with her, whilst she was living with Sydney Rowe in Auckland  from 1911, together as Mr and Mrs Harvey ( albeit her maiden name was Harvie not Harvey) and giving the name Sydney as the father of Edwin.
Re the Edwards that was my error. Yes it should have been Armstrong.
PatsyAnn

Hi PatsyAnn

I think the answer to the sons of Violet being given the surname RYAN, is that upon her marriage to Daniel RYAN in 1918, he became their legal guardian.     

It is not necessarily a case of Violet "giving her sons this surname well before Daniel RYAN came on the scene", it has to do with the  fact that a change of name (in this case from TURNER* to RYAN), will always be recorded on the the New Zealand Birth Index "in the actual year of birth of the particular child" (and ideally a notation will appear on the original birth record giving some detail of change of name).
   
       ~  Lu

[Lucy2]

PatsyAnn

I see that you comment on information from the "birth certificates" for the sons Winton and Edwin, do you actually have the certificates (or the "printouts" of birth records which generally gives additional info) 

    ~  Lu