Edwin William Ryan born 1914 Auckland (linked to Sidney Rowe?)and brother Winton

[Lucy2]

...
This time my query is linked, in that the above named was the son of a Violet Harvie Sweet who in 1910/1911 was being divorced by her then husband Frank Turner citing Sidney Rowe as co-respondent. Subsequently Violet and Sydney were said ( in the divorce papers) to be cohabiting in Auckland under the name of Harvey/Harvey. Violet gave birth to a son Winton Herbert Ryan in 1911 some 5 or 6 months after the divorce was finalised. The father's name was not recorded on his birth certificate so I am uncertain whether he was the child of Sidney Rowe ( who may also have been calling himself Ryan) or of her husband Frank Turner.
He went by the name Ryan all his life although in 1935 he changed it to Turner by Deed Poll. He never used the surname  Turner even in what became a distinguished military career, so it is a mystery as to why he changed it.
In 1914 she gave birth to a second son, Edwin William Ryan and on the birth certificate the father was recorded as Sydney (presumably Ryan).
 

Hi  PatsyAnn

I gather from your other thread that you've already read through the NZ Army record for Sydney ROWE - Regt. No. 12/1066  ?


  http://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE20097197

Please see Page 4 of this record (at bottom of page) where particulars of wife and family are noted.

Spouse is given as "Violet Sweet HARVIE" - marriage particulars are left blank, because there doesn't appear to have been a legal marriage for them.

Children:    The names of Winton Herbert and (born 1/06/1911) and Edmund [sic] William (born 30/06/1914) are given.
Sydney ROWE is claiming these named children as his offspring.

   ~  Lu   

[Lucy2]

Hi again

I don't of course have the benefit of viewing the TURNER v. TURNER 1911 Divorce file, but there is a "somewhat veiled" report in the local newspaper of the day stating that Sydney ROWE visited (an ill) Violet TURNER at her home in September of 1910.     
Not sure if that hints at the possible time of conception for the child Winton, born 1 June 1911 at Auckland

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19110823.2.99

Scroll down to article entitled "A False Friend".

   ~  Lu

[Lucy2]

Sydney ROWE + photo and brief details :    Invalided home from War - 1915 :   His wife and two small children live at  ...

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19151007.2.72.6

   ~  Lu

[Lucy2]

...    Violet gave birth to a son Winton Herbert Ryan in 1911 some 5 or 6 months after the divorce was finalised. The father's name was not recorded on his birth certificate so I am uncertain whether he was the child of Sidney Rowe ( who may also have been calling himself Ryan) or of her husband Frank Turner. He went by the name Ryan all his life although in 1935 he changed it to Turner by Deed Poll. He never used the surname  Turner even in what became a distinguished military career, so it is a mystery as to why he changed it.

Hi PatsyAnn

Just a quick question. 
 
*  How do you know of this 1935 Deed Poll ?
*  Do you have a copy of the document ?

   ~  Lu

[minniehaha]

Deed Poll......

https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=25694896


The existence of this document supplied to PatsyAnn by e-mail some weeks ago after the original topic was closed.


Minniehaha.

[PatsyAnnKelly]

Hi Lucy and Minnie
Thank you both. Yes I have read all the stuff on Sydney Rowe during my last thread and Minnie and Beg supplied me with lots of information which allowed me to conclude that,  with a link up to living Rowes. The current  separate thread is that of Winton and Edwin who were known as Ryan, as you say Lucy, because their mother married a Daniel Ryan. I know Sydney claimed both children as his own but there must be some doubt as to Winton because she was married to Frank Turner at time of conception . Additionally Sydney claimed Violet as his wife but they never married.
I do not think from the newspapers etc that Violet had custody of the two Turner children, although one report on the divorce suggests she took her young daughter with her. I doubt that separation of children and custody to an 'errant' wife ( in the society of that time)  would have been a realistic option if there had been a contest on the part of the 'wronged' husband. Not my views I hasten to add, simply the mores of the time, certainly here in the UK. Unless the husband didn't want them of course.
I am in contact with a living descendant of Winton who is sending for his birth cert and is doing an Ancestry DNA test which should resolve the paternity issue as my  son in law descended from Sydney has done the same and is linked to Rowe so if they match then he is probably Sydney's. That person has no knowledge of Edwin ( Winton's either full or half brother) ,nor the other 2 children of Violet by Turner so I am concentrating in trying to trace his line down. I cannot access voters lists on MyHeritage and via any other source from here in the UK
Thanks
PatsyAnn

[PatsyAnnKelly]

Lucy, Re Frank Turner ex husband of Violet Sweet, coppersmith, I have now accessed his WW1 Military records online and found that he seemed to have kept custody of the two children of the marriage. On his records he claims he has a wife, Winifred Maude ( Farley) married in 1912 and 3 children, Frank Reginald 1903, Esther Flora 1905 and Arthur Kenneth 1915. No mention of Winton and Edwin Ryan. Clearly he was not heartbroken for long after the 1911 divorce. Nor was he fated to be happily married as he and Winifred divorced in 1926.
Re Daniel Ryan who married Violet Sweet in 1918 and was stepfather to Sydney's sons I have tracked him down again via WW1 Military records. Born 1876 in Tipperary, Ireland parents deceased. He went into the NZ Army under ballot Sept. 1917. I assume that was a compulsory call up in what seems to be the later stages of the war? At attestation he was a saddler living at Great North Road, Kingsland Auckland. I discounted 2 other Daniel Ryans as they were serving in the field abroad when Violet married one of the three in 1918.
On the Archives website I found reference to a mortgage discharge between Daniel Ryan of Grey Lynn and Government officer of some sort ( records relate to time slots between 1907 and 1938). The property in question was in Princes Street Auckland. Daniel was described as a butcher.
I looked up Daniel Ryan Butchers Grey Lynn on Google and there is still a butchers shop at 531  Great North Road address. I feel certain this is the correct Daniel Ryan because of the Grey Lynn connection between him and the address Sydney gave for Violet. Perhaps love blossomed over the lamb chops? Not long-lived though as they divorced in 1926
The butchers connection might spark a clue or memory? A Daniel Ryan died 1945 and is buried in Otahuhu Public cemetery. Perhaps it is him.
Thanks
PatsyAnn

[Janette]

Hi PatsyAnn.

There are 3 Princes Street's in Auckland and oddly enough none are in Grey Lynn nor would they have ever been considered to be in Grey Lynn which is why I found that address curious.
The first Princes Street is in the centre of the city (where old Auckland Government House is),the second is in Onehunga and the third is in Otahuhu.

Cheers Janette

[Fresh Fields]

......Edited....
On the Archives website I found reference to a mortgage discharge between Daniel Ryan of Grey Lynn and Government officer of some sort ( records relate to time slots between 1907 and 1938). The property in question was in Princes Street Auckland. Daniel was described as a butcher.
I looked up Daniel Ryan Butchers Grey Lynn on Google and there is still a butchers shop at 531  Great North Road address. I feel certain this is the correct Daniel Ryan because of the Grey Lynn connection between him and the address Sydney gave for Violet. Perhaps love blossomed over the lamb chops? Not long-lived though as they divorced in 1926
The butchers connection might spark a clue or memory? A Daniel Ryan died 1945 and is buried in Otahuhu Public cemetery. Perhaps it is him.
Thanks
PatsyAnn

Hello PatsyAnn

Hopefully within the next couple of weeks I will be back to the Auckland branch of Archives NZ to look up a list of over 30 deeds, that I have singled out to do with early Waikato research. So what's one more ?

Will add to my list item R24588336 for a look see, and if revealing will photograph the document. It related to the settlement of a loan raised from a Governmental settlement scheme.

Alan.

PS Have you looked into the probate of a Daniel Ryan, Sadler, Papakura [ R21453910 ] which can be viewed on line on a family history site. ?

https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21453910

PPS Had a quick online look at the PRIMARY DEEDS INDEX R22764432 and on image 240 a mortgage deed numbered 186217 was registered on September 27th 1906 for a Mr RAYAN morgatgee. Perchance it is in a big deed book R141 page 46, which I will be returning to on my next visit. So no trouble to look up.