John Brown B 1831 Woolwich. Looking for a marriage to Elizabeth 1861-ish

[LizzieL]

The John Brown at South Bank was a gunner and driver in the Royal Artillery in the 1851 census and it mentions on his discharge papers he is living in South Bank Yorks. service number 2306.
He was a sergeant from 9 sep 1857 to 2 June 1870, being a bombadier, court martialled for something reduced to gunner, then promoted back to bombardier, then corporal and finally sergeant.

[Ladyhawk]

Don't know if this might be the same Elizabeth Quantick

Eliza QUANTIC single 28 born Ashcombe Devon Occupation Nursery Maid
Cowley More, Tiverton, Devon - Head Lucy Short
1851c HO107 1889 Folio   38 Page   1

Perhaps not as there's also an Eliza Quantic on 1841 census

Mamhead Cottage, Mamhead, St Thomas, Devon
Eliza QUANTIC Age   15
others same household
Agnes, Henry, Sarah, Thos, Mary, Willm last names Michelmore, Waydon, Mosey, Walters
HO107 Piece 220 Folio 6 Page 7

[Ladyhawk]

There is a public tree on Anc*y  for a

John BROWN born 2 Dec 1831 Woolwich, Kent died 14 Mar 1897 South Bank (near Middlesbrough), Yorkshire

parents named as
David BROWN 1802 & Ann nee MORRIS

wife
Elizabeth QUANTRICK (1824-1890)

No marriage details, no baptisms details, censuses mentioned 1891/81/71/51 and link to
UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925 (14 Jun 1870)

only details of one child
Henry BROWN
Born 27 AUG 1868  South Bank (near Middlesbrough), Yorkshire
Died 7 MAR 1935  Eston, Yorkshire
(picture of Henry and his wife Margaret nee Robson (1868-1941) & daughter Olive (1905-1987)

PaulineJ - you mention John's possible father as David (Painter) have added details of 1841 census

Edward Street, Woolwich, Greenwich, London & Kent
David BROWN   40 occ Painter
Ann   Brown   45
David Brown   13
John   Brown   9
Thomas Brown   6
George Brown   3
Betsy MORRIS   35
Betsy Morris   4
HO107 Piece 492 Folio 23A Page 3

Same as everyone else not found a marriage for John Brown to Elizabeth Quantrick to confirm father's names occupations etc......

[PaulineJ]

Think I had everything bar the hospital admission.
Just nothing yet to match that particular John Brown to the one which is the son of David &Ann. Think my next step is to search for documents with a birthdate..

That'll be tedious, given the name and location.

[PaulineJ]

So, the tree on ancestry has a pension  service record for the woolwich/ NYorks chap.
Says he signed up under age,
Dates 25 may 1846 to 24 may 1849 under age
25 may 1849 to 15 dec 1852 (date of promotion)  3y, 205 days

So do we conclude that he was born 24/25 May 1831, and that's why his pension calculation has the cutoff?

(In which case, he's not the child of David and Ann)

[AMBLY]

So do we conclude that he was born 24/25 May 1831, and that's why his pension calculation has the cutoff?
(In which case, he's not the child of David and Ann)

John Brown, son of David and Ann, baptized Woolwich, St Mary Magdalene on 7 Jan 1835, and reporting a birthdate of 2 Dec 1831

In the 1841 Census officially dated 6 June, David & Ann's son John is aged 9, and by all accounts would turn 10 years in December.

The full service record of this Sgt John Brown, #2306 Royal Artillery
Completed Service to Discharge 14 June 1870
Discharged age 39 to reside at : Southbank, near Middlesbrough, Yorkshire
Attested/signed on on 25 May 1846 at Woolwich, aged 15 years,

(That address, agrees with later records 1871 onward & birthplaces of children, of your John. It seems very certain this R.A sergeant is your John? The father's occupation on baptisms o[ to 1870 would be key)

The Army record intimates that they (the Army) agree John turned 18 on or about 25 May 1831.   

However - it's not stated as a birth date, and a very plausible scenario is:
He was only 14 when he signed up, and fudged his age by a few months. The army have accepted this (no birth cert to prove otherwise) then later have taken his coming-of-age to count from 25 May 1846, the date he signed on at declared age 15 - plus 3 -  to the 25 May 1849 when they accept he is now 18 (even though he really wasn't quite)

As to a marriage to Elizabeth.

I agree, she could have been a widow when she married John.  Either way, in accepting John is the Army man, it could be an Army marriage. He served 5½ years in Bermuda.

So many scenarios arise from this...
* When was he in Bermuda?
* When he was 'At home', where was he? Ireland, England/Wales, Scotland, Channel Islands?
* Could she have been prior married to an Army Man and widowed (putting her in Bermuda or wherever John was?)

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Don't know if this might be the same Elizabeth Quantick

Eliza QUANTIC single 28 born Ashcombe Devon Occupation Nursery Maid
Cowley More, Tiverton, Devon - Head Lucy Short
1851c HO107 1889 Folio   38 Page   1

Perhaps not as there's also an Eliza Quantic on 1841 census

Mamhead Cottage, Mamhead, St Thomas, Devon
Eliza QUANTIC Age   15
others same household
Agnes, Henry, Sarah, Thos, Mary, Willm last names Michelmore, Waydon, Mosey, Walters
HO107 Piece 220 Folio 6 Page 7

The above could indeed very easily be Elizabeth QUANTICK the daughter of Thomas and Eleanor, though?  The 1841 Census with the Michelmore family, she is a F.S. (Female servant in the household).

And as you say, Elizabeth QUANTICK the daughter of Thomas and Eleanor - is not in her father's household in 1841. Nor is she with him 1851. Nor with him in 1861.  I followed that family a bit, partly looking for marriages of siblings to see witness names (hoping for an Elizabeth    but no luck ). Here's  what I jotted down anyway - you may have all/some of this, so for reference:

MARRIAGE 1819:
Thomas Quantick married Eleanor Rugg, 19 Oct 1819, Mamhead

CENSUS 1841:  Ashcombe
Piece 219- Book 1- Folio 6- P 7
Thomas QUANTIC, 50, Ag Lab, with (in order of listing:)
Mary 20, Ellen 8, George 8, Harriet 6, Andrew 1

CENSUS 1851: Ashcombe
HO107- Piece 1867- Folio 663 -P 3
Thomas QUANTIC, 40, widower, Farm Labourer (Thomas' age is way out - he is about 62 here)
Dau: Ellen 18, unm
Son: Andrew 11,

And next door:
Head: Henry QUANTIC 36, Farm Labourer
Wife: Jane 35
Dau: Ann 13
Son: Elias 10
Son: Joseph 6
Visitor: Eliza'th KENTSBEAR? 23, Serv't,  b Crepiton

MARRIAGE 1851: At Ashcombe
On 31 Dec, Ellen Quantic, dau of Thomas Quantick, of Ashcombe, married George Gilpin.
Witness: James Quantick, Harriet Bolt.

CENSUS 1861: Ashcombe, Labourers Cottage:
RG 9; Piece: 1392; Folio: 150; Page: 2;
Head: George GILPIN 30, ag lab
Wife: Ellen 28,
Children: James 9, George 8, Miriam 6, Henry 4, Fred'k 10mth,
Father: Thomas QUANTICK 72, Widower, Ag Lab

DEATH 1865:
Thomas QUANTICK age 76 years, Abode: Ashcombe
Buried Ashcombe, 10th October 1865.

Cheers
AMBLY

[LizzieL]

Assuming John the soldier who lived in South Bank was born in may and didn't lie about his age

1841 census taken on 1 June 1841

John Brown born approx 1831/2 living in Woolwich

John Brown s/o David and Ann age 9
John Brown s/o Joseph and Sarah age 10

John (9) is consistent with a birthday in December 1831
John (10) is consistent with a birthday in May 1831

David (father of John 9) is a painter. Neighbours mix of trades, no army.
Joseph (father of John 10) is a labourer. Several of neighbours are in the army, implying area may be close to barracks 

1851 census taken on 30 March 1851

Both Johns would be listed as 19 as neither would have had their birthday by end March. Both born Woolwich

John 19 lodger with Bakerfield family occupation painter and glazier Piece 1589 Folio 64 Page 9
John 19 gunner and driver with 10th Bn Royal Artillery

Given age differences and occupation of John the lodger/ painter, I think he is the son of David and Ann, and John the soldier is the son of Joseph and Sarah

[Ladyhawk]

John Brown, son of David and Ann, baptized Woolwich, St Mary Magdalene on 7 Jan 1835, and reporting a birthdate of 2 Dec 1831

In the 1841 Census officially dated 6 June, David & Ann's son John is aged 9, and by all accounts would turn 10 years in December.

Have added a screenshot of 1830 baptism of John Brown father David (painter) born 22 MARY