Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK

[PIGLET392006]

Hi jim1, sorry but I've yet to read the posts since my last one on Tuesday 5th November, so I can take everything in, & then see what needs to be looked at after that. Many thanks for your help & everyone else's in the meantime!

Regards 

[PIGLET392006]

Hi jim1 (& others!), I'm taking some time now to look at the posts you sent so I can catch up on everything. Sorry for taking so long, but I live in Australia & we have unprecedented bushfires down here at the moment, it's devastating. Everywhere you go you breathe in smoke & the sun is always red. So here goes:-

1. It looks like the Frank Inchley I was looking into isn't related to Minnie, so as you said, he most likely died very young/at birth.
2. I've looked at the details you provided from the 1950 Electoral Roll regarding Doris Carey & William Inchley, & you mention it gets complicated, so I'm interested to find out more!
3. I took the opportunity over the weekend of being able to look up some other details, as www.findmypast.co.uk allowed free access due to Remembrance Day. The image of the 1901 Census for the Inchley family showed Harry Hales' age was handwritten as 33, but it actually looked like someone had written "33" over the top of something else. This makes his birth year different to what it was originally thought to be - 1879. So that complicates things a little again!
4. What I'm still having trouble finding out is any death details relating to Minnie Eva Hales (nee Inchley, year of death supposed to be 1923) & Harry Hales as well. If he disappeared after discovering the affair between his wife & Harry Rundle, who knows what happened to him.

Regards 

[jim1]

The bushfires have been widely reported over here, looks terrible but glad to see you're ok.
It's probably worth putting up who the Inchleys married.
1901-Nellie=Alfred Chicketts
1902-Amy=William Hill
1903-Mary Ann=Walter Reeves
1904-Minnie=Harry Hales
1909-Arthur=Alice Flowers
1914-William=Ruby Ingram
1916-Martha=George Pemberton
1920-Doris=Charles Carey
1923-Gertrude=Fred. Stokes
In an earlier post I said there was a Harry Hales living with an Alice F Snow in 1927 which might be him.
On the above 1950 ER you will see a William H Inchley living with an Alice F Snow.
So decided to put her under the spotlight & found in 1925 & 27 Harry is living with Alice at the same address as above.
In 1930 living with Alice F is a Harry Inchley & Alice M Inchley.
According to the 1939 register Harry Inchley was born 1903 & checking his birth register there is no mmn meaning he was illegitimate.
As the 3 oldest girls were married the only mother it could be is Minnie.
The circumstantial evidence is that Harry b.1903 is the illegitimate child of Harry Hales & Minnie.
Harry b.1903 married Alice May Snow in 1925. She is the daughter of Alice F.
As they were too young to vote they won't appear on the ER's until 1930 which they do living with Alice F.
I'm pretty sure in 1925 & 27 they were living with Alice F & Harry Hales.
In 1927 Harry & Alice May had a son William H, he is the William H who appears with Alice F in 1950 & 55.
He wouldn't have been eligible to vote until 1948 so 1950 is the first time he will appear.
At this time Doris who is his aunt is also living in the same road.
Alice May died in 1933 & Harry b.1903 went to live in Coventry leaving William H with his mother-in-law.
In 1939 Alice F is at the same address as above with one redacted who is certainly William H.
What this does is prove that the Harry Hales who appears in 1925 & 27 is the missing Harry Hales & Harry Inchley b.1903 is half-brother to Joseph & Stanley.
It also shows that Harry Hales was still in contact with his children.
Have to go out but back later.
A bit about Minnie's brother William who's birth we couldn't find. He did quite well for himself, he had a good job at the Longbridge car plant & lived in Rubery which even today is a nice place to live as it sits at the foot of the Lickey Hills a local beauty spot.
In 1939 he has an Olive Pemberton living with him, the youngest of 8 children of Martha Inchley.
If you want to know about Minnie's death you will have to get the death cert.
If you want to know more about Harry Hales you will need to get his marriage cert.
Below is a map which represents about a square mile of Sparkbrook. As you can see there are a number of Inchleys living quite close to each other. In there is also Harry Rundle & Harry Hales.
Where Joseph & Stanley are in the mix is impossible to say.
You say they were put into care in 1923. Do you have anything to support this?

[PIGLET392006]

Hi jim1, I'm sitting in my local library at the moment & I've got access to electoral rolls & various other things through www.findmypast.co.uk. I'm following up on the information you've given me. So, to confirm:-

1. During the 2nd half of 1923 & all of 1924, Alice was living alone at 7 Albert Terrace Studley Street, Birmingham, UK. (Prior to that - all of 1922 & 1st half of 1923 - Alice was living there with her eldest son, Arthur Charles Snow.)

2. From the 2nd half of 1925 - 1928, Harry Hales was living there along with Alice F Snow, & her son Walter Henry Snow.

3. From 1929 onwards, things seem to change. Alice F Snow, her son Walter, Harry Inchley (Harry Hales' illegitimate son) & his wife Alice May are all living at the abovementioned address. Gone is the ever-elusive Mr Harry Hales.

4. There is a marriage transcription for a William Inchley, for the marriage year of 1947 & the spouse's name is Jill Wilson. If this is Harry & Alice May Inchley's son William born 1927, this makes him around 20 years old when he married, so this could be him.

5. With regards to the Hales/Rundle children being put into care when their mother died in 1923, as far as I know there are only family recollections as to what actually happened around that time. To be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure that 1923 is the actual year when Minnie Eva Hales died. But here is a link to Joseph John Rundle's NAA (National Archives of Australia) records:

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6480713

These records show the address on his attestation papers being the Fairbridge Farm School at Pinjarra, Western Australia & letters between the Australian Army & The Salvation Army Missing Persons Unit, trying to locate Joseph John Rundle for his half-sister, Ethel.

Regards 

[jim1]

When looking at the ER's you have to remember that only people eligible to vote appear, ie. 21 for men & 30 for women (pre.1930). There could be others under voting age. I believe Harry Inchley Jnr. & Alice May nee Snow & their son William H are also there up to when Alice May died + some of her own children.
I'm pretty sure the 1923 death is her, it's the right place & right age but only her death cert. will confirm it.
I believe with regard to Joseph & Stanley their record in care may be subject to the 100 year rule so it might not possible to access them, however with some information the 50 year rule may apply so it may be worth contacting B'ham Council Social Services & see what they have to say.
http://www.careleavers.com/what-we-do/access-to-records/accessing/database/

[PIGLET392006]

Hi jim1, sorry my mistake. I forgot to include those still living with their mother, Alice F Snow, who were ineligible to vote at the time.

I'm still interested to find out where Harry Hales disappeared to after 1929, i.e., when he moved out of Alice Snow's address in Studley Street at the time Harry & Alice May were living there with their son, William. At least he would've been there to meet his grandson. I wonder if it's possible he boarded with another one of his children & their partner, so I'm still looking into that one.

I was at my local library again yesterday morning, participating in a Family History Research Session which I'd been on a waiting list for, & I uncovered a few other details. I managed to print out the following:-

1. Details of Harry Rundle's wife & their 5 children, & their marriage taking place in 1899 at the Weymouth registry office, from his Military History Sheet.

2. The letters that Alice Maud Rundle had written to the British Army, trying to get their assistance in locating her missing husband. These letters are dated from 1915 through to about 1919. She acknowledges in what appears to be her last letter to them that they've replied in February 1919, & that they've only said Harry was ill, but there's no copy of the British Army's reply to Alice in amongst Harry's service records online.

3. A letter from Harry Rundle, dated 24th June 1927, to the British Army requesting information from his military service records to produce for future employment. His writes his address as "2 Nora Avenue, Fulham Road, Sparkhill, Birmingham".

4. A copy of the 1901 England Census showing Harry Hales boarding with the Inchley family at 16 Ernest Road, Balsall Heath, Birmingham, UK. It clearly shows Harry Hales as a Sergeant of the 6th Worcestershire Regiment, & as I mentioned previously, his age seems to have been altered.

During this session, we only had access to www.ancestry.co.uk records, but I managed to find out the following. Maybe you could confirm some of this information to be true (or not!):-

1. George Edward Inchley b.1854 married Mary Anne Booden b.1860 on 4th December 1881 at St Andrew's Church, Bordersley, Birmingham, UK. If their eldest daughter Amy was born in 1880, this means she was illegitimate.

2. Three of Minnie's sisters passed away relatively close to one another - Nellie died in March 1928, Birmingham, UK; Amy died in June 1936, Birmingham, UK; & Mary Ann also died in June 1936, Birmingham, UK.

4. The death of Doris A M Carey, nee Inchley, on 25th December 1977.

5. A piece of very strange information was discovered as well. A half-sister of Minnie & her siblings, named Gertrude, was supposedly born in 1888 to Mary Anne Booden & someone with the surname Slater. As you've mentioned previously, online family trees can be wrong, so maybe this Gertrude belongs to another family.

Thanks for the information regarding care records, I'll try to contact them & see what they come up with.

Regards 

[jim1]

I've seen the letters & the Army wouldn't have been particularly interested in his domestic situation unless it impacted on his service so they would have only given basic details of his whereabouts & physical condition.
It's clear that he was seeing Minnie from the time he was living in Ombersley Rd. Sparkbrook in 1911, although we don't know where Minnie was living at the time she would have been in that area. The family home where her father lived is just off the bottom of the map.
Alice probably knew of the affair & that's prompted the move to Winson Green which is as far from Sparkbrook as you can get & still be in B'ham.
I notice on his service record the Nora Ave. address has been pencilled in dated 1914 so it looks like he has made the move without telling Alice.
I'm not sure he joined the Army for purely patriotic reasons, it would have given him the opportunity to stay out of Alice's sight & see Minnie whenever he could. He didn't go overseas until April 1917 so spent 2 1/2 years in the UK & Alice hadn't seen him for the entire time.
When he was given leave he went straight to Nora Ave. Stanley being the result.
With regard to Harry Hales it's unclear when he & Minnie split, there are no births after they married in 1904 so possibly was gone by the time Harry Rundle came on the scene.
Best not to look at online trees as it just adds to the confusion. Gertrude doesn't exist.
Other than that the above information is correct.

[jim1]

I should add that I'm now not convinced the Harry Hales who appears with Alice F in 1925 & 27 is the missing Harry.
I don't like to backtrack but it just seems odd on 2nd. viewing.
The last sighting of Harry Hales was the 1904 marriage. It seems odd that he would disappear for 21 years & reappear in 1925 & 27 & then disappear again.
Harry Inchley would have been brought up as Harry Hales as that was the family name although it says Inchley on his birth cert.
Being born 1903 he would have been eligible to vote by 1924 yet doesn't appear until 1930.
It's probable he went by the name Hales until the birth of his son William H Inchley.
Now he has a dilemma as we're into the age where accurate surnames matter. So William H is going to be known as William H Hales by changing his name or Harry is going to have to start calling himself Inchley which is what I think has happened.
It makes more sense to me now that the Harry Hales who appears in 1925 & 27 is Harry Inchley.

[PIGLET392006]

Hi jim1, the information below was provided previously on this thread with regards to the children of Harry & Minnie Eva Hales. After Harry Jnr. was born out of wedlock in 1903, these are the children that followed. Maybe you can confirm these details if possible. Stanley & Joseph, of course, are the result of Minnie's relationship with Harry Rundle:-

GRO has the following Hales children with mmn Inchley

Frederick Mar 1906 Solihull 6D 650
Elsie Maud Jun 1909 Kings Norton 6c 406
Minnie Edith Sep 1912 Kings Norton 6c 673
Ethel Mary Mar 1914 Aston 6D 806
Stanley Maurice Rundle Mar 1917 Aston 6D 681

I can't find the family in 1911

Emeltom

Nor can I, and I also can't find Minnie's parents who I believe were still living.  I would expect them all to be somewhere in the Kings Norton district.

Debra 

I've read your latest posts, however, I would've thought that Minnie Hales & Harry Rundle meeting in or around 1911 was a bit early, maybe more like 1914/1915? But I could be wrong. Minnie Eva & Harry Hales are still having children up to 1914. Harry & Alice Rundle's 5 children were born from 1902 - 1910.

I can see where it's possible that the ever-elusive Harry Hales (Senior) can still be regarded as missing. To confirm then, if this is the case, from 1925 - 1929, Harry Hales born 1903 (who is really Harry Inchley), is living at Alice F Snow's address which is 7 Albert Terrace Studley Street, Birmingham. He marries her daughter, Alice May Snow, in 1925 & is still living at his mother-in-law's address with his wife & Alice's younger siblings for approximately 5 years. In 1927, Harry & Alice May's son William is born. The Electoral Register for 1929 shows Harry & Alice May's surname as Inchley.

Where the older Harry Hales is, born 1879, is a deepening mystery!

Alice F Snow died in 1969, living to a ripe old age of 92. According to the 1911 Census, her husband's name was Charles, born 1876, & his occupation was as a Bedstead Burnisher. I don't have details of his death as yet, however, by the early 1920's Alice F Snow must've already been widowed as he is not mentioned on the electoral rolls.

Regards