Author Topic: Lundie/Cuthill connection in Arbroath  (Read 1870 times)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Lundie/Cuthill connection in Arbroath
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 05 November 19 08:34 GMT (UK) »
No, but you haven't told us who the parents of these three people were. Or the parents of Grace Brown.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Phildy

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Re: Lundie/Cuthill connection in Arbroath
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 05 November 19 08:48 GMT (UK) »
Sorry!

William Lundie’s parents were Alexander Lundie (b 1736) and Margaret Scott (b 1768). Margaret Walker’s parents were John Walker (b ?) and Isabella Davidson (b ?).
John Lundie’s parents were Alexander Lundie (b 1791) and Jane Binney (b 1802)

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Phill

Offline Phildy

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Re: Lundie/Cuthill connection in Arbroath
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 05 November 19 08:50 GMT (UK) »
Oh!
Grace Brown’s parents were Andrew Brown (b 1792) and Elizabeth Littlejohn (b 1796)

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Phill

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Lundie/Cuthill connection in Arbroath
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 05 November 19 09:19 GMT (UK) »
So the link you hope to find would, if it exists, be between the two Alexander Lundies, then? Where did their birth dates come from?
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline Phildy

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Re: Lundie/Cuthill connection in Arbroath
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 05 November 19 09:38 GMT (UK) »
The link, if one exists, could be anywhere. Both families are riddled with names that occur many times (primarily because of the use of the old Scottish naming convention I believe).
The birth dates/years are from a number of sources, some less reliable than others I’m afraid! I’ve examined sibling names to seek out any potential for a family in common, but each time I think I’m into something, a fact arises that rules it out!
The frustrations of ancestry research. I even contemplated starting at the beginning, back around 1150 when the clan was established following the granting of title and lands by the king to two brothers, creating the Baron of Lundin and the Baron of Lundie. There is a good book by a living Lundie descendent that maps the Baron of Lundin’s family. Unfortunately, my ancestors were from Angas, the Baron of Lundie, and the book doesn’t provide much detail there!
Any further tips or hints would be appreciated. I bought some credit on Scotland’s People so can look at documents (if they exist), but funds are not limitless! Do I need to target well!

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Phill

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Lundie/Cuthill connection in Arbroath
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 05 November 19 11:11 GMT (UK) »
Yes, I am familiar with such problems.

I checked the book of pre-1855 gravestone inscriptions, but none of your Lundies are mentioned.

Jane Binny or Lundie died in Arbroath in 1861, aged 57, mother's maiden surname Steven.
She is in the 1841 census, at Railway Porter's House, Railway Station, 15 Spink Street, aged 35, with Alexander, 15; William, 10; Jane, 10; Barbara, 5; John, 2; and Mary Bruce, 60.
In 1851 she is at Guthrie Port, described as married, aged 49, with Barbara, 16 and John 12.
A James Lundie, mother's maiden surname Binney, died in 1868 aged 47.
However I cannot see any baptisms of any of these children, or of any children of Binn(e)y and Stev/phen, or either marriage. That leads me to wonder if they were members of either the Episcopal Church or a dissenting denomination.
Nor, in spite of Jane being described as married in the (transcription of) the census, can I readily see her husband in either 1841 or 1851.
It might be worth trying to see if Alexander Lundie, husband of Jane Binn(e)y, is recorded in any of the railway company's staff records. The railway company was either the Dundee and Arbroath, or the Forfar and Arbroath, which met at Arbroath. Later on it became part of the North British Railway.

As to the DoB of Alexander Lundie, husband of Jane Binn(e)y, I fear that someone has looked for a possible match, found one baptised in 1791 in Inverarity, son of James Lundie, mother not named, and assumed that he must be the one because there is no other candidate. Then other people have copied that without checking.
If they had, they would have found Alexander Lundie, aged 59, unmarried, born Inverarity, living at 15 ?Panmure Street, St Vigeans in 1851 with his unmarried brother David, 63, born Rescobie. James Lundie and Jean Mudie were married in Inverarity in 1777 and had a son David baptised in Rescobie in 1787. There is also a gravestone in Arbroath Abbey to James Lundie, died 17 March 1811 aged 62, and his wife Jane Mudie died 4 September 1832 aged 70, erected by their sons David and Alex.
There is no likely-looking death of an Alexander Lundie in the statutory records, but David Lundie, mother's maiden surname Lundie, died in Arbroath in 1859 aged 72. In 1841 David Lundie, 50, is at Panmure Street, St Vigeans with Robert Beattie, 55; Helen Beattie, 50; and David Beattie, 9. Helen Beattie or Lundie, mother's surname Mudie, died in Towie in 1866 aged 77. So I think you can dismiss 1791 as a firm YoB for your Alexander Lundie.

Now, Alexander Lundie and Margaret Scott. There is a marriage of Alexander Lundie to Mary Scott in St Vigeans in 1789, and baptisms of David Lundie in 1790, mother Margaret Scott, and Mary Lundie in 1792, mother Mary Scott, both in Arbirlot. I suspect that all these are the same Mary or Margaret. It's quite common to find the name Margaret abbreviated to Marg and transcribed as Mary, so it is necessary to look at the originals and make up your own mind. Even if the writing is clear, it's possible that the clerk was copying information from a note from the minister that he misread, or that he himself made a mistake about the woman's name.
John Lundie, mother's maiden surname Scott, died in Arbroath in 1864 aged 67, and Betsy Lundie or Ferrier, mother's maiden name Scott, died in Arbroath in 1866 aged 72. You could look and see what those death certificates tell you about their mother's (or mothers') given name(s).

Back to the parents, whether it's Mary or Margaret. They were married in 1787. If Alexander was born in 1736, that would make him 51 when he married. This is unusually old, unless it is a second marriage. There is no surviving record of a baptism of an Alexander Lundie in 1736, so unless you have some compelling evidence that he was born in 1736, I think that date too is suspect and you should probably be looking for a birth more like 1760 than 1736.

Oh, and there are no Cuthills mentioned in any of that.

How does that sound so far?
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Phildy

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Re: Lundie/Cuthill connection in Arbroath
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 05 November 19 11:42 GMT (UK) »
Thank you so much! Clearly an expert in looking records up!

I’ll need to consume the information and try to tie it in with various pieces I have. I hear what you say about name spelling and the ways of record keeping. My John Lundie, upon moving to Port Adelaide, had a colourful life. One time Councillor in the District of Portland Estate and owner of several houses (in this days each house owned gave votes to be elected to Council and you only needed a dozen votes to be elected), John worked in several fields and has a trail of police records and interesting articles in newspapers. They often spelled his name Lundy!

I completely understand the issue around ‘best fit’ birth dates/years and the evils of ‘that other site’. However, sometimes it’s all you have to go on. The key is remembering not to trust anything unless you’ve confirmed it somehow. To that end, I use notes in my family tree in ‘that other site’, such as ‘as noted on death certificate of X’. But, as you’ve also noted, even official records can be flawed, so secondary confirmation always helps.

Again, many thanks and I’ll check it all out in the next couple of days!

Regards
Phill

Offline Phildy

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Re: Lundie/Cuthill connection in Arbroath
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 05 November 19 11:49 GMT (UK) »
As an aside I’d like to mention that I volunteer at the Port Adelaide Historical section of the council library. We have excellent records in Australia (being 2-300 years old makes that easier). As well as registers of births, deaths and marriages, there are historic land titles records, cemetery records, etc, all online and free. As well, the National Library has a website called Trove that stores fully searchable digitised records. One fantastic resource is a massive set of historical newspaper records allowing one to search papers back to the early 1800s. My family name yielded thousands of articles and has provided great meaning to my ancestry research as well as unearthing relatives!

If I can ever assist with Australian searches (particularly South Australia), please let me know.

Regards
Phill

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Lundie/Cuthill connection in Arbroath
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 05 November 19 12:16 GMT (UK) »
As an aside I’d like to mention that I volunteer at the Port Adelaide Historical section of the council library. We have excellent records in Australia (being 2-300 years old makes that easier). As well as registers of births, deaths and marriages, there are historic land titles records, cemetery records, etc, all online and free.
I have used the online indexes to South Australian BMDs, and some cemetery records, but I'm sure there is a lot more I could glean.

Quote
As well, the National Library has a website called Trove that stores fully searchable digitised records. One fantastic resource is a massive set of historical newspaper records allowing one to search papers back to the early 1800s. My family name yielded thousands of articles and has provided great meaning to my ancestry research as well as unearthing relatives!
Yes, I have spent many an hour when I should have been doing other things searching Trove. a wonderful source indeed.

Quote
If I can ever assist with Australian searches (particularly South Australia), please let me know.
Thank you, I might take you up on that!
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.