What information would you trust?

[kjmck]

Depending on when his birthday fell, the age on the 1841 census could mean he was born 1776 - 1781. The 1851 census gives a birth year of 1775 - 1776. The age on the death certificate is quite a bit out compared with the censuses and is perhaps more suspect. It sounds as if it just means "very old".

Hi GR2 - On his death record his cause of death is just given as Old Age with No Medical Attendant. Based on the census returns, would it be too much of a guess to say he was born in the 1770's? 

As you know he was a Chelsea pensioner, his discharge papers should survive and give his age. You say he left the army between 1813 and 1815. His discharge papers will give you an exact date. He may have served in more than one regiment. Do the birthplaces of his children give a clue to where he served?

So, 9 children in total.
Margaret - born c.1806, Cannot find a baptismal record.
Elizabeth - Bapt. 21/08/1808 at Ardersier. John was a Private in the 6th R.V.B and witnesses to the baptism were Serjt, Peter Shaw & Capt. James Mathison.
Charlotte - Bapt. 13/02/1810 at Boleskine & Abertaff or Fort Augustus. Rank - Soldier.
John - Bapt. 04/12/1812 at Boleskine & Abertaff or Fort Augustus. Rank - Private.

Mary (1815), Allan (1817), Donald (1820), Janet (1824), & Catherine (1828) were all born on the Isle of Coll.

[kjmck]

Hi Forfarian,

'In the 1841 census, adults' ages were suposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years. So someone listed as aged 60 could have been anything from 60 to 64, and assuming that his ager is accurate he would therefore have been born between 8 June 1776 and 7 June 1781.'

'If accurate that would imply a birth between 31 March 1775 and 30 March 1776.
As these two sets of dates do not overlap, at least one of them is definitely wrong.'

'That, if accurate, would imply a birth in 1766 or 1767.'

So the period for a potential birth could span 15 years give or take a couple of years if you allow room for innacuracy.

'Be aware that Tyrie is a parish in Aberdeenshire as well as an alternative spelling for the Hebridean island of Tiree, next to the isle of Coll.'

I didn't know that there was a Tyrie parish in Aberdeenshire. Looking at the 1841 Tiree & Coll Census, under the column Where Born/if born in the County or state otherwise, next to John's name it says 'yes'. In the 1851 Cenus his birth place is written as 'Argyle Tyree & Coll'. And on the Chelsea Pensioner record for a John McKenzie, his birth place is written as Tyrie, Argyll.

'If he is the 75-year-old John McKenzie, Chelsea Pensioner, at Arinagour with wife Betsey, son John, daughter-in-law Annabella and daughter Catharine, the transcription I am looking at says  that he was born in the parish of Canongate in the county of Midlothian. The census index at FamilySearch says he was born in Edinburgh. Canongate parish is in the city of Edinburgh. What does the original census say?'

On the 1851 Census, only Betsey is listed as being born in Canongate, Edinburgh. Everyone else is listed as born in Argyle, Tyrie & Coll. I too saw a second John McKenzie who was an Army Pensioner on the Isle of Coll, and found it quite a coincidence.

'Peggy is a pet name for Margaret. Does it say "Peggy McKenzie MS McKenzie" and if not, what exactly does it say?'

For John's parents - John MacKenzie (Crofter, Deceased) & Peggy McKenzie, Maiden Surname is given as a line only (Deceased). Although I have just noticed that McKenzie is spelled differently for John Sr. & Peggy.

Keelan

[Forfarian]

So the period for a potential birth could span 15 years give or take a couple of years if you allow room for innacuracy.

In this case, yes.

For John's parents - John MacKenzie (Crofter, Deceased) & Peggy McKenzie, Maiden Surname is given as a line only (Deceased). Although I have just noticed that McKenzie is spelled differently for John Sr. & Peggy.

So Peggy was not necessarily born Peggy M(a)ckenzie, and the son who registered his father's death did not know the surname of his maternal grandparents. The different spelling isn't significant.

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//research/list-of-oprs/detailed-list-of-old-parochial-registers-of-scotland.pdf says that the baptism records in Coll go back to 1776. However there don't seem to be any records of M(a)ckenzie baptisms in Tiree or Coll from 1775/6 to 1785.

So it may well be that you have indeed come to a dead end.

[kjmck]

Looking at the OPR of births and baptisms for Tiree 1766-1800, there is no McKenzie/MacKenzie born there. In the same for Coll 1776-1820, there are 20 McKenzie's born between 1793 & 1820, 3 of which were born to John & Betsey. No birth leads on my Chelsea Pensioner John though.

For the Coll OPR Marriages between 1776 - 1820, there are two marriages for a John McKenzie.

09/02/1819 - John McKenzie (Grishipoll) to Mary McDougal (Tyree).
16/09/1799 - John McKenzie Widower (Feall) to Ann McPhaiden (Grishipoll).

For Tyree OPR Marriages 1766-1854

30/04/1799 - Duncan McKenzie (Rona) to Flora McLean (Caoles)

The only lead I can think a possibility is that the Widower who married in 1799, may have been married to Peggy. But it is tenuous at best.

[kjmck]

I do wonder, as the Clan McKenzie originated in Sutherland I believe, when my McKenzie's went to Argyllshire. And if the reason none of my McKenzie relatives appear in the OPR baptism & marriage registers for the 18th century in either Tiree or Coll, is because they did not originate from there. hmm.

[Forfarian]

I do wonder, as the Clan McKenzie originated in Sutherland I believe, when my McKenzie's went to Argyllshire. And if the reason none of my McKenzie relatives appear in the OPR baptism & marriage registers for the 18th century in either Tiree or Coll, is because they did not originate from there. hmm.

Whatever the reason for your Mackenzies being missing from the Coll registers, it isn't because they didn't come from there. The church was supposed to keep a record of all baptisms and marriages in the parish, regardless of where people came from. The reason is far more likely to do with poor record-keeping or registers being lost or destroyed.

[raonull4]

hi 
   the parents listed for the children born on Coll appear to have married
on the 21st feb 1806 in Kilmuir, Easter Ross,
the earlier children born Ardersier,
mother Elisabeth (betty) Sutherland,
may be woth while searching malitia records

[raonull4]

John McKenzie 10th regiment of foot, but birth county is Ross and Cromarty,
the muster rolls are online but im very sorry its that long ago since i viewed them,
but it is the right area and time period if he did serve in the malitia,
and it seems very likely he did,

[kjmck]

Hi raonull4,

Thanks for taking the time to look there for me. I have found a marriage for John McKenzie to Betty Sutherland on 20th May 1805 in Canongate, Edinburgh. John is listed as being a Private in the 6th R.V.B and Betty is listed as the daugter of Adam Sutherland, a Porter and this information correlates with the information given on her death record. Though I have not been able to find a birth record for Betty/Elizabeth.

I am unsure if John & Betty would have registered their marriage in more than one place? Maybe in the areas of their birth/residence, I don't know.

John McKenzie - Betty Sutherland 20/05/1805 Canongate.
John McKenzie - Betty Sutherland 21/02/1806 Kilmuir Easter.
John McKinzie - Elisabeth Sutherland 15/10/1806 Mortlach.

Between 1800 - 1820 there are 7 births to a John McKenzie - Elizabeth Sutherland couple, 6 of which are definitely siblings, the 7th, George MacKenzie was bapt. 30/04/1809 at Kinellar, Aberdeenshire. The reason I don't think this is a sibling to the others is that an Elizabeth McKenzie was bapt. in August of 1808 at Fort Augustus, and on the Baptismal record for George it doesn't state an occupation for his father.

So other than George, I can't see any other children for the other two couples.

Keelan