1885 Church Wedding record but missing from Civil Registration?

[TunjiLees]

Hi Everyone,

I'm a bit perplexed here. I've found a church marriage record indexed on Roots Ireland for whom I believe relates to a distant cousin. The equivalent record seems to be missing from civil registration however! Has anyone ever encountered this before?

Unfortunately the digitized Catholic records online stop in 1881 so I haven't seen the original record, but Roots Ireland transcribes the marriage as follows:
28 Nov 1885 David Lees married Ellen Brien. Address: Crag, Newport, County Tipperary. Witnesses: Joe McGorman and Ellen Hewitt.

Despite searching with various wildcards and variants I could not find the equivalent marriage record on IrishGenealogy.

At first I though that maybe the marriage was just proclaimed and that it never actually happened, but then I found Ellen's death record in 1886 where the witness is "David Lees, Husband, Corragean" which proves that they did indeed get married.

Could the marriage have gone unrecorded by the state, despite it having been mandatory since 1864?

Also on Roots Ireland I found a record of David Lees converting and being baptized into the Roman Catholic Church on 26 Nov 1885 (he was born Church of Ireland), not sure if this is relevant though. David followed his father into the army and served 1869-75.

Would appreciate people's thoughts!

[Sinann]

Happens fairly often. I've seen whole pages of church marriage registers without civil certs.

[hallmark]

Have you tried something like this....with Marriage in Nov, may have been registered following Jan/March quarter

[Wexflyer]

There is a potential reason why it might not be registered.

It was illegal under the penal laws for a Catholic priest to marry a Protestant. To register such a marriage was to provide legal proof of the "crime". I would also note that such a "marriage" was not legally valid - was null and void. That provision was not repealed until sometime in the 1870s/80s.  At least one priest had to flee to the US earlier in the century, to avoid transportation to the Antipodes...

[Purpeller]

Because it's a transcript, you cannot totally rely on the information.

It's more likely that there's a dodgy transcription than them not being registered. By 1885, there should be pretty good coverage. I've only ever found one marriage not on the civil records that should be: it was in 1881.

Contact the church & explain the situation and see if they'll send you a photo of the register page. Then you can search for other couples on the same page in the civil register and see if you can find them that way.

[TunjiLees]

Hi everyone and thanks for the suggestions! As I understood it the penal laws were repealed in the 1870s so not sure if that would have been the issue. Maybe contacting the church is the thing to do here. Fingers crossed

[Elwyn Soutter]

I have come across quite a few marriages that are in the RC parish registers but not in the relevant civil registers, particularly in the period 1864 to the 1890s. I think some priests simply didn’t send a copy of the marriage to the civil Registrar.

I don’t think it was anything to do with Penal laws, all of which were long repealed by the date you are interested in.  (The last Penal Law – preventing Catholics from being elected to Parliament – was repealed in 1825). The Roman Catholic church may have had it’s own canonical rules on mixed marriages but that wasn’t anything to do with the Penal Laws.

I think contacting the parish office for a copy of the marriage record is the next step.

[medpat]

It may have been part of civil disobedience as many who wished for independence refused to conform to legal requirements. A church wedding meant married in the eyes of God and the church and that was enough for them. Clergy were amongst the objectors.

[eadaoin]

There is a potential reason why it might not be registered.

It was illegal under the penal laws for a Catholic priest to marry a Protestant. To register such a marriage was to provide legal proof of the "crime". I would also note that such a "marriage" was not legally valid - was null and void. That provision was not repealed until sometime in the 1870s/80s.  At least one priest had to flee to the US earlier in the century, to avoid transportation to the Antipodes...

I'd have thought that it was no longer illegal after Disestablishment of the Church of England in Ireland in 1869?