Author Topic: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld  (Read 6387 times)

Offline majm

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Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
« Reply #72 on: Wednesday 12 February 20 11:01 GMT (UK) »
NSW Electoral Roll 1878 BATHURST
Charles WILSON, household, Hope Street
Daniel SULLIVAN, residence, William Street

Grevilles 1875 Post Office Directory BATHURST
No listing for any by the name of Charles WILSON
No listing for any by the name of Daniel SULLIVAN

NSW Electoral Roll 1870 BATHURST
No listing for any by the name of Charles WILSON
No listing for any by the name of Daniel SULLIVAN

The above info MAY BE relevant, and then again it MAY BE NOTHING to do with your couple.

I am actually unable to find any info in your reply #71 that gives you any reason to consider that that Charles was born in Tasmania to Charles and Sarah WILSON.   

I will stress that the NSW BDM marriage record may NOT have all the answers, but there’s information on the NSW BDM record that should help you get to the actual original parish register.   

If this were my family I would NOT be purchasing the NSW BDM marriage certificate, BUT I would be purchasing the OFFICIAL transcription of the NSW BDM marriage certificate.   Official transcriptions are reliable, are licenced by NSW BDM and are transcribed by experienced people who are familiar with the handwriting of the clergy who submitted summary information to the NSW BDM in 1878.   

This was in the era when NSW BDM was mid way through 40 years of disputes with the Churches over how much/how little info the NSW civil admin actually needed to know about the couples marrying in NSW.  The clergy were withholding details that they collected from the brides and grooms, and only providing ‘summaries’ of the marriages to the civil registration processes.    BUT the NSW BDM’s records will give you the details of the clergy, denomination, witnesses, etc.   The elusive blanks  (on civil official registrations) are usually found/resolved on the actual parish register, which is why you only need an official transcription from NSW BDM.  With that official transcription you will learn which denomination.  With that knowledge you then set about finding out which organisation has the current custody of the parish register. 

The headings on NSW BDM marriage certificates (and on official transcriptions) include the following that are NOT covered in the indexes that your reply # 71 is likely drawn from
 :) the then AGES of the bride and the groom,  and if either were not yet 21, the details of who gave consent on their behalf,  (name and relationship)
 :) Where born,  (town and colony, or if overseas, sometimes just the country)
 :) their marital status  (bachelor, widower, divorcee petitioner, spinster, widow, divorcee etc) ( Single is a NEW term introduced quite recently, it is NOT on the actual record, it is a politically correct term, and does not mean 'never married' ... Divorce came to NSW in 1873)
 :) their usual residential addresses,
 :) their occupations,
 :) their father’s occupations,
 :) the names of the witnesses (occasionally their home addresses even)
 :) the denomination 
 :) where the ceremony was held ... (manse/home/church building etc)
 :) the clergyman’s name

See this (quite lengthy) thread :   https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0

NSW BDM info on OFFICIAL transcriptions :  https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyhistory  scroll down.   All three offer excellent service. 

It is simply NOT possible to draw any conclusion as to the origins of Mary SULLIVAN’s husband or his parents without knowing what first hand information HE gave to the clergyman when marrying Mary.   I cannot stress strongly enough HOW significant it is that the surname you are researching is one of the most popular surnames in NSW in that era, and thus how careful and dedicated you need to be when validating info before proceeding to the parents’ generation and beyond. 

JM
Modified re some grammar issues.
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Offline majm

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Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
« Reply #73 on: Wednesday 12 February 20 12:40 GMT (UK) »
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65077028  Bathurst Free Press 20 Dec 1882
Police Court, …. Summons Cases ….
Mary Wilson v Charles Wilson re words spoken about his mum.    ::)

(As a possible aside, a chap named Henry LUCRE was the licencee of the Excelsior Hotel in Bathurst in that era.)

JM
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Offline matthewj64

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Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
« Reply #74 on: Wednesday 12 February 20 23:00 GMT (UK) »
...
About Sarah's literacy, I looked again at the marriage of Charles Wilson & Sarah Watson. https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/results?qu=wilson&qf=NI_INDEX%09Record+type%09Marriages%09Marriages&qf=PUBDATE%09Year%091816-1856%091816-1856&rw=156&st=PA&isd=true

It seems weird because to me it all looks to be written by the one person.

Register entry with original signatures attached

The witness 'Sarah Mills' looks to be in the same hand as 'Sarah Watson', but the shape of the 'r' between the two 'Sarah Watson' signatures don't match.

It looks to be a fairly confident signature (unlike others on the same page), which conflicts with someone later having to sign with an X

I'm not sure what to make of it  ???

Offline majm

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Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
« Reply #75 on: Thursday 13 February 20 00:10 GMT (UK) »
Hi, 

IF that image was for a NSW record of a marriage I would confidently say that it was a transmitted record forwarded to the civil authorities by or on behalf of the Reverend.  It seems to me that is all in the one hand. 

Is it an image of the actual parish register or is it an image of the civil/official registration….  NSW civil registration commenced in 1856, but I am sure that VDL commenced the civil process much earlier … perhaps in the late 1830s.

However, until we know what information the chap who married in NSW in 1878 provided to the clergyman who conducted the ceremony between Mary SULLIVAN and himself, we really do not know if the FindMyPast info (giving his parents as Charles WILSON and Sarah BOND) has any connection to the Charles WILSON husband of Sarah WATSON and/or Sarah BOND noted in the opening post and in our replies to date.   

There was a huge population increase in NSW that commences in the 1850s and people from around the globe flocked to NSW …  not just British Subjects, but ‘aliens’ ie people who were not subject to allegiance to the British Empire.  The incoming passenger lists for that period are not nearly as detailed as you would hope for …. For example if people travelled steerage and were paying their own fare, often you only learn the actual number of people in steerage – no names, no occupations, no gender, etc…   So people coming from say the Californian gold fields to the New South Wales gold fields are very poorly documented…  People landing in Adelaide and walking overland to the Victorian Gold fields … very poorly documented ...  Intercolonial voyages eg New Zealand to any east coast colony (Vic, Qld, NSW, VDL/Tas… woeful documentation) And ... WILSON is the fifth most popular surname in NSW in the 19th century records. 

On the other hand,  back in the 1850s etc,  if you were a female, even if you were fluent in writing/reading etc IF you were asked to 'make your X mark' by clergy or government officer .... would you just make your X mark or would you enter into a JM type long winded discussion ( ;D  ;D  ;D ) as to whether you would be allowed to sign with your usual signature ...  :D   (My husband is saying "JM never just makes her mark ... she goes on and on and on ... but usually is spot on !" ) 

JM
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Offline matthewj64

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Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
« Reply #76 on: Thursday 13 February 20 02:24 GMT (UK) »
Hi, 

IF that image was for a NSW record of a marriage I would confidently say that it was a transmitted record forwarded to the civil authorities by or on behalf of the Reverend.  It seems to me that is all in the one hand. 

Is it an image of the actual parish register or is it an image of the civil/official registration….  NSW civil registration commenced in 1856, but I am sure that VDL commenced the civil process much earlier … perhaps in the late 1830s.

However, until we know what information the chap who married in NSW in 1878 provided to the clergyman who conducted the ceremony between Mary SULLIVAN and himself, we really do not know if the FindMyPast info (giving his parents as Charles WILSON and Sarah BOND) has any connection to the Charles WILSON husband of Sarah WATSON and/or Sarah BOND noted in the opening post and in our replies to date.   

There was a huge population increase in NSW that commences in the 1850s and people from around the globe flocked to NSW …  not just British Subjects, but ‘aliens’ ie people who were not subject to allegiance to the British Empire.  The incoming passenger lists for that period are not nearly as detailed as you would hope for …. For example if people travelled steerage and were paying their own fare, often you only learn the actual number of people in steerage – no names, no occupations, no gender, etc…   So people coming from say the Californian gold fields to the New South Wales gold fields are very poorly documented…  People landing in Adelaide and walking overland to the Victorian Gold fields … very poorly documented ...  Intercolonial voyages eg New Zealand to any east coast colony (Vic, Qld, NSW, VDL/Tas… woeful documentation) And ... WILSON is the fifth most popular surname in NSW in the 19th century records. 

On the other hand,  back in the 1850s etc,  if you were a female, even if you were fluent in writing/reading etc IF you were asked to 'make your X mark' by clergy or government officer .... would you just make your X mark or would you enter into a JM type long winded discussion ( ;D  ;D  ;D ) as to whether you would be allowed to sign with your usual signature ...  :D   (My husband is saying "JM never just makes her mark ... she goes on and on and on ... but usually is spot on !" ) 

JM

Yes, the parish register, with some signatures in very different handwriting to indicate it as being the original.

Looking at the whole page again, the same handwriting is used for all the 'X mark' names (and these match the writing for Sarah Watson), so I think it is likely that she neither signed her name or marked her X to the page.

Perhaps a mistake has been made on her convict indent where it says she can both read and write?

M

Offline majm

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Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
« Reply #77 on: Thursday 13 February 20 02:50 GMT (UK) »
Yes,  agree, very possible.  :)

But we need to pause until we actually know about the first hand information that the Charles WILSON in 1878 gave when marrying Mary SULLIVAN...  his age, his birthplace, the names of his parents including the nee and any other names for his mum, and both his and his dad's occupations.  Those details ought to be on the original parish register.  The collective knowledge bases of NSW focused family history buffs have been well aware of the need to get to the original parish registers since at least the 1930s.  It is a core part of NSW FH101  :D  :)

NSW BDM online index continues to clearly remind us all that:

... "access to the 1856 to 1895 church marriages registers.       Some Registry marriage records from these years recorded only the details pertaining to the parties to the marriage. Details of the parents had been left blank although they appeared in the Church registers. These registrations were amended and a notation made in the margin to record the circumstances of the amendment.

The task of reconciling the Early Church Records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate or in the case of a birth, a baptism record where there is no corresponding civil registration."
   
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/registry-records.aspx

JM
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Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
« Reply #78 on: Thursday 13 February 20 05:33 GMT (UK) »
Thanks again for so much work. I've ordered the transcription. It will take a fair while.

Offline majm

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Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
« Reply #79 on: Thursday 13 February 20 06:06 GMT (UK) »
 :)  Do you need any help with the SULLIVAN line in Central Western NSW in mid to late 1800s?

 :) where/when did Mary die?  I am wondering about her mother on law ... wondering if this is your couple  :)

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65077028  Bathurst Free Press 20 Dec 1882
Police Court, …. Summons Cases ….
Mary Wilson v Charles Wilson re words spoken about his mum.    ::)

(As a possible aside, a chap named Henry LUCRE was the licencee of the Excelsior Hotel in Bathurst in that era.)

JM


JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline searchr

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Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
« Reply #80 on: Thursday 13 February 20 22:25 GMT (UK) »
You're  too good.
I don't know where/ when she died. Her brother Jeremiah is how I got to her.
Their parents could be these:
4017/1850 V18504017 162B SULLIVAN DANIEL SHEA ANN LG Unavailable