Author Topic: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s  (Read 1898 times)

Offline avm228

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,827
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 13 February 20 09:45 GMT (UK) »
The four surviving children were admitted to St Saviour’s, Southwark workhouse on 1 May 1896.

Edit:

Sorry, seems that was a move within the system. The first admission I can find is 30 April 1896. They were admitted from Newington parish which is presumably where the family’s last address was.  John William Rowland was admitted with them but they seem to have been separated in the system.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline josey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,655
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 13 February 20 11:30 GMT (UK) »
Do you have Margarets death certificate

Deceased online had this burial, no other details available
Rowland  Margaret
burial date
15 January 1896
Southwark

which fits with this registration
Deaths Mar 1896 
Rowland    Margaret    40    Camberwell    1d   527

For reference the other thread is
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=36228.9

EDIT: I know it sounds wet blanketish & I don't doubt the story but the only 'proof' we have of the drowning is the newspaper cutting [presumably now lost] and family story passed down the generations. Is it possible that John William for whatever reason, left the children after separation in the workhouse system?
Seeking: RC baptism Philip Murray Feb ish 1814 ? nr Chatham Kent.
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS,DUNEVAN Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Halifax & Pictou: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

Offline jonw65

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,779
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 13 February 20 12:03 GMT (UK) »
John William was discharged from the Mint Street workhouse to go to Newington (workhouse), but I'm not sure that he was admitted there.
Children sent from Newington workhouse to Hanwell schools, 4 June 1896
St Saviour's School Register marks up the children as deserted.
Father St Georges Whouse John
deserted (them?)

On ancestry
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01p1h/

EDIT Discharged 28 June 1897. Boarded out.

Offline nellie d

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 543
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 13 February 20 12:26 GMT (UK) »
Aren’t you all lovely...and Rosie99...bless your heart...As you probably saw I was looking into thus lot a few years ago, but then ill health stopped me from doing any of thus. I am back now with a vengeance and most of what you lovely people have written I have already discovered. It was the bit about the drowning that I wanted to research more! As Josey said, it could well be possible he deserted them and that is a nice story.
This information regarding the drowning cane from cousins in the US. There were the 4 children, my gt Granny Margaret, Alice, Will and George. Alice never had children and the two boys left fir the US c1914. I managed to track down their descendants a couple if years ago.
The two families, that if Will and that if George have two different stories. One us that he committed suicide, the other is the drowning story. Now, apparently Alice, the sister is the one who showed a newspaper cutting to the nephew. I did find an Alexander  Rowland amongst the Royal Humane Society archives as suggested by Chris Doran earlier. He died whilst attempting a rescue and the dates are about right too. I wonder if the clipping just said Mr Rowland, and it just became legend.
Granny always told us that they were in Barnardos, but there is no record of them there, I think saying they were in and out of the workhouse was probably embarrassing for her. I have found them in and out of St Saviours for April and May 1896, just after their mother died. She definitely died there and I have the death cert. Her bay, Charlotte died 3 weeks later. It was just after that, that they ended up fling in to St Saviours Union as a family, then they seemed to go their separate ways about 14th May. There is a William Rowland of the right age that is popping up there over the years right into the early  1900’s, and if he did abandon them that could well be him, but I guess we will never know. Just thought it might be an idea asking in here. I know the children were with the Stride family in Mayfield by 1901, it was his death that I was really interested in...thank you all so much...you are amazing!
Mayhew,Birch,Coates,Norman - Suffolk
Masters - Somerset
Richardson, Masters, Langridge, Dyer, Chambers - Sussex
Dyer, Luscombe, Hurrell - Devon
Chambers - Brecon
Lambden, Hawkins - Berkshire
Biggs, Cooper, Druce, Hedges, Haywood, Francis,Ward, Skidmore, Pinfold, Dorn, Gardener, Hopgood - Oxfordshire
Francis, Clarke - Lambeth/Surrey
Rowland, Emmett, Lockhart - Southwark/Middlesex
Simpson, Exall, Mann, Frisby,  - Kent
Ward, Teasdale, Smalwood - Yorkshire
Tomkins, Bayliss - Warwickshire


Offline nellie d

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 543
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 13 February 20 12:28 GMT (UK) »
John William was discharged from the Mint Street workhouse to go to Newington (workhouse), but I'm not sure that he was admitted there.
Children sent from Newington workhouse to Hanwell schools, 4 June 1896
St Saviour's School Register marks up the children as deserted.
Father St Georges Whouse John
deserted (them?)

On ancestry
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01p1h/

EDIT Discharged 28 June 1897. Boarded out.

JonW65....I could kiss you...that will be the missing link I need between discharge from St Saviours and ending up being adopted/fostered by the Strides in Mayfield!  :-*


Also...I am on ancestry and with all my searching I never found that bit about the school..well done!
Mayhew,Birch,Coates,Norman - Suffolk
Masters - Somerset
Richardson, Masters, Langridge, Dyer, Chambers - Sussex
Dyer, Luscombe, Hurrell - Devon
Chambers - Brecon
Lambden, Hawkins - Berkshire
Biggs, Cooper, Druce, Hedges, Haywood, Francis,Ward, Skidmore, Pinfold, Dorn, Gardener, Hopgood - Oxfordshire
Francis, Clarke - Lambeth/Surrey
Rowland, Emmett, Lockhart - Southwark/Middlesex
Simpson, Exall, Mann, Frisby,  - Kent
Ward, Teasdale, Smalwood - Yorkshire
Tomkins, Bayliss - Warwickshire

Offline josey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,655
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 13 February 20 12:58 GMT (UK) »
Do you have John William's birth certificate or baptism  with actual date of birth - could just be on 1939 register?
Seeking: RC baptism Philip Murray Feb ish 1814 ? nr Chatham Kent.
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS,DUNEVAN Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Halifax & Pictou: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

Offline nellie d

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 543
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 13 February 20 13:56 GMT (UK) »
Josie...the only reference I have for age is from the 1891 census and marriage cert.
Plus of course the workhouse admissions and discharges.
1891 census says 26...1858
Marriage cert for 27/12/1884 says 24...1860
Workhouse entry for 30 April 1896 says he is was born in 1861
Mayhew,Birch,Coates,Norman - Suffolk
Masters - Somerset
Richardson, Masters, Langridge, Dyer, Chambers - Sussex
Dyer, Luscombe, Hurrell - Devon
Chambers - Brecon
Lambden, Hawkins - Berkshire
Biggs, Cooper, Druce, Hedges, Haywood, Francis,Ward, Skidmore, Pinfold, Dorn, Gardener, Hopgood - Oxfordshire
Francis, Clarke - Lambeth/Surrey
Rowland, Emmett, Lockhart - Southwark/Middlesex
Simpson, Exall, Mann, Frisby,  - Kent
Ward, Teasdale, Smalwood - Yorkshire
Tomkins, Bayliss - Warwickshire

Offline nellie d

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 543
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 13 February 20 16:07 GMT (UK) »
I am not having much success at uploading the certificates...I keep getting the message that says the file is too big. How can I reduce the size?
Mayhew,Birch,Coates,Norman - Suffolk
Masters - Somerset
Richardson, Masters, Langridge, Dyer, Chambers - Sussex
Dyer, Luscombe, Hurrell - Devon
Chambers - Brecon
Lambden, Hawkins - Berkshire
Biggs, Cooper, Druce, Hedges, Haywood, Francis,Ward, Skidmore, Pinfold, Dorn, Gardener, Hopgood - Oxfordshire
Francis, Clarke - Lambeth/Surrey
Rowland, Emmett, Lockhart - Southwark/Middlesex
Simpson, Exall, Mann, Frisby,  - Kent
Ward, Teasdale, Smalwood - Yorkshire
Tomkins, Bayliss - Warwickshire

Offline rosie99

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 42,082
  • ALFIE 2009 - 2021 (Rosbercon Sky's the Limit)
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 13 February 20 16:11 GMT (UK) »
We can only upload parts of certificates when we need something deciphering.  It may be better just to type out the information
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk