"The Presbytery ordered the Kirk Session to remove the scandal" Please explain

[roserobin]

Hello.. I'm hoping someone can explain what is meant by "The Presbytery ordered the Kirk Session to remove the scandal".

A quick snapshot of the proceedings leading up to the above was a child born out of wedlock.. the mother, Lilias, was interrogated by the Church and confessed to being with child and named the father, Robert Stuart.  He was subsequently called before the Session and denied all guilt.  This happened twice and the matter was referred to The Presbytery.  Lilias & Robert were twice summoned but failed to appear .. several months later (and after the child was born with Robert's brother standing sponsor at the baptism) he finally confessed that he was the father.  The Presbytery confirmed that he was of bad character and ordered the Kirk Session to remove the scandal.  What does this mean & what would have happened next ??  That is all that has been found in the minutes so far.

Is it likely that if Robert's brother stood sponsor, he would also help bring up the child or see to its well being ?

Would very much appreciate any help understanding this matter.

Many thanks 

[Forfarian]

It's the final stage in dealing with an illegitimate pregnancy.

See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825881.0

I haven't come across the phrase 'remove the scandal' before but it will be the same as 'absolved from the scandal' which is quite common. In other words, the couple have been disciplined for their sin, they have paid their fine, and their suspension from 'church privileges' has been rescinded. The matter is then regarded as closed, which is why there is nothing more in later minutes.

Though if one of the erring parents is guilty of a 'relapse', in other words has another illegitimate child, the first 'case' may be referred to. I have seen 'trilapse' and I keep looking out for 'quadrilapse'.

In the Church of Scotland, a sponsor is needed only if a parent doesn't present the child for baptism, and a parent who is still 'under scandal' is barred from 'church privileges' which include baptism of a child. (Seems a bit unfair on the innocent child, but that was how it was.)

The sponsor does undertake that the child will not become a burden on the parish, so by implication Robert's brother was indeed taking responsibility for its upbringing.

[roserobin]

Thank you so much Forfarian for explaining that to me 

It's interesting to note that before he actually admitted the crime.. they (The Presbytery) presumed their guilt because they had "been guilty years before".  Whether that refers to another child born out of wedlock or just fornication  I don't know yet, as I haven't been able to access those session minutes... living on the other side of the world doesn't help!

I've read your link to the other rootschat forum https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825881.0 which was really informative and it was also great to read that ScotlandsPeople will be adding the digitised KS records online once they get over their technical issues... that would be so wonderful to all the curious Scottish descendants who can't actually make it to the archives.

Thank you again Forfarian 

[lanercost]

FamilySearch have many Kirk Session minutes and Presbytery minutes already available online at any LDS family history centre. What parish are you looking at?

[roserobin]

Hi Lanercost,

Thanks very much for the info.. I didn't know that.  I'm looking for the Parish of Dunblane. 

Stirling Archives helped brilliantly with my initial enquiry for free (amazing but true!), however subsequent enquiries cost 30 pound per hour, which as I don't know if the Kirk Sessions are indexed, may take a long time to go back through the years to find if there is any further information.  (And I don't know for sure if these are my ancestors yet).

I'm very excited to think I could actually look at these records myself online at an LDS centre.. now I just need to find one close by !

[GR2]

Although the minutes of the kirk sessions are not indexed, the clerks very often put the subject of discussion or the names of the people involved in the margin. That makes it fairly easy to locate the passages you want as long as you know a rough date. Cases could drag on for several months, but where there are marginal notes they are fairly easy to follow.

[lanercost]

Hi Lanercost,

Thanks very much for the info.. I didn't know that.  I'm looking for the Parish of Dunblane. 

Stirling Archives helped brilliantly with my initial enquiry for free (amazing but true!), however subsequent enquiries cost 30 pound per hour, which as I don't know if the Kirk Sessions are indexed, may take a long time to go back through the years to find if there is any further information.  (And I don't know for sure if these are my ancestors yet).

I'm very excited to think I could actually look at these records myself online at an LDS centre.. now I just need to find one close by !

Here are all the record sets for Dunblane you can view from your local LDS family history centre, there are a lot! Not my area so I'm not sure what are what but perhaps you recognise the churches. I've had a quick look and there are minutes within a few sets:

https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/results?count=20&placeId=3724&query=%2Bplace%3A%22Scotland%2C%20Perth%2C%20Dunblane%22%20%2Bavailability%3AOnline&subjectsOpen=383219-50,1401221-50,1453893-50

[roserobin]

That is wonderful.. some of those dates look perfect to start hunting through.  Thank you so much for looking up that info for me.  I will certainly start using FamilySearch a lot more as well.  It's amazing what I've learnt from this website already and I've only just scratched the surface !

I've managed to find an LDS Family Centre not too far from home so guess what I'll be doing with any spare time ?!

Hopefully there are a lot of notes in the margins - thank you for that tip GR2 

[Forfarian]

I had a look through the list in the link provided of what is available via FS. There are some curious features.

The list includes four sets of so-called 'Probate' records.  In Scots Law there is no such thing as 'probate' so at the very least these documents are wrongly indexed.

One set of church records is marked as "Scotland, Perth, Dunblane Diocese, church records". The Church of Scotland does not use the term 'Diocese', because a diocese is the area that comes under a bishop, and there are no bishops in the Church of Scotland. So are these incorrectly indexed, or do they relate to an Episcopalian diocese?

Of the other sets called' Church records', six are parochial registers. Six are from one or other of the dissenting churches. Two are labelled 'Presbytery' or 'Presbyterial Council'. (The Presbytery would be involved in a case of discipline only if there was something unusual about it, such as adultery or a persistent denial of guilt over an extended period of time.) And lastly, three are from churches other than the Cathedral church.

None of the FS index listings mentions 'Kirk Session' at all, and there is no mention of 'minutes', which are what you want.

A search on FS using 'Dunblane' and keyword 'kirk session' produces five results, none of which appears to be the Kirk Session minutes.

I also checked for listings on FS of any of the Kirk Session minutes that I have habitually viewed in the Historical Search Room in Edinburgh, and none of them is listed on FS.

You need to do a lot of homework before you head for an LDS FHL to be sure that you know exactly what you want to see and whether or not they actually have the documents you want. From looking through those search results, I don't believe that they do have them, and quite honestly I would be surprised if they did.

Sorry to be a wet blanket!