Lloyd Brickwall

[linda51]

I'd appreciate comments and views on the following brickwall:

1   Charles           1815   St Mary, St Marylebone   George & Mary   Serv   
2   Mary   1816   St James, Westminster   George & Mary Ann   Porter   Queen St
3   James Richman   1818   St James, Westminster   George & Mary   Servant   20 Queen St
4   John George   1821   St John the Evangelist   George & Mary Ann   Servant   Frederick St
5   George William   1823   St James, Piccadilly   George & Mary Ann   Servant   10 Heddon St
6   Sarah Margaret   1825   St James, Westminster   George & Mary Ann   Servant   Swallow Street
7   Elizabeth Ann   1827   St James Westminster   George & Mary Ann   Servant   Little Vine St
8   Samuel Orange   1829   St James, Westminster   George & Mary Ann   Servant   Swallow Street

The above are possible siblings of my ancestor Samuel Orange Lloyd. The object is to identify his parents and siblings and identify any cuckoos in the nest:
A.   All the above baptisms occurred within one to three months of birth except John George Lloyd for whom there is a 7 month gap. He was also the only one to be baptised at St John the Evangelist which was either in Upper Holloway or Waterloo.
B.   St James, Westminster and St James, Piccadilly are the same church.
C.   Queen Street is in Mayfair, Westminster a short distance from Piccadilly. Frederick Street is in Camden, St Pancras. Heddon Street, Swallow St and Little Vine St are at the lower end and west of Regent Street and Swallow Street joins Piccadilly – all three are in Westminster making Frederick Street (John George Lloyd) the odd one out.
D.   Only the last six children were given middle names. Note: Samuel Orange Lloyd frequently gave his name as Samuel William Lloyd.
E.   Neither Charles, Mary, John George or Elizabeth Ann have been traced. Sarah Margaret died in 1827 which leaves James Richman and Samuel Orange as the only children successfully traced - George William Lloyd-two found in 1841 but the parents are not a match.
F.   On the marriage certificate for Samuel William (Orange) Lloyd in 1859, his father is shown as George William Lloyd, Brass Founder.
H.   On the marriage certificate for James Richman Lloyd in 1845 Dublin, Ireland. His father is shown as George Lloyd, Sailor!!!
I.     James Richman Lloyd not found in 1841 or 1851. In 1861 he is in Finsbury, London with his wife and children. All surnames are shown as Lloydd and the birth registration of one of his children was given as Lloydd. James Richman Lloyd’s only male child was christened James Richman Lloyd in 1860, but his birth registration was given as James Richmond Lloyd suggesting an element of illiteracy.



Any ideas?

[avm228]

John George Lloyd was not baptised at St John’s Holloway (not yet built in 1821) or St John’s Waterloo - the parish record makes clear that it was St John the Evangelist, Westminster.

Here’s an image: www.grosvenorprints.com/stock_detail.php?ref=21770

It’s now usually known as St John’s, Smith Square - long since deconsecrated, and used as a music venue.

Frederick St (Westminster) was within its parish.  My own relatives lived in Frederick St in the mid-19th century.

[linda51]

John George Lloyd was not baptised at St John’s Holloway (not yet built in 1821) or St John’s Waterloo - the parish record makes clear that it was St John the Evangelist, Westminster.

Here’s an image: www.grosvenorprints.com/stock_detail.php?ref=21770

It’s now usually known as St John’s, Smith Square - long since deconsecrated, and used as a music venue.

Frederick St (Westminster) was within its parish.  My own relatives lived in Frederick St in the mid-19th century.

Excellent! That means he's back in..........and leaves Charles as the greatest possibility for a cuckoo title!!
Thank you so very much.........it's the most progress I've had on this brickwall in over 15 years!

[avm228]

I have had a look at James Richman Lloyd’s family - you suggest “an element of illiteracy”, but I suspect maths may not have been a strong point either. In 1861 the “Lloydd” children Louisa, Julia and James Richmond are entered as 15, 13 and 10 but in fact seem to have been more like 8, 6 and 1.

Louisa Lloyd: born 8 May 1852 and baptised 15 Aug 1852 Manchester Cathedral
Julia Ann Lloyd: born 4 Feb 1855 and baptised 27 Jan 1856 Manchester Cathedral
James Richmond Lloyd: birth reg Dec qtr 1859 and baptised 22 Jan 1860 St Anne, Soho (Westminster)

[linda51]

I have had a look at James Richman Lloyd’s family - you suggest “an element of illiteracy”, but I suspect maths may not have been a strong point either. In 1861 the “Lloydd” children Louisa, Julia and James Richmond are entered as 15, 13 and 10 but in fact seem to have been more like 8, 6 and 1.

Louisa Lloyd: born 8 May 1852 and baptised 15 Aug 1852 Manchester Cathedral
Julia Ann Lloyd: born 4 Feb 1855 and baptised 27 Jan 1856 Manchester Cathedral
James Richmond Lloyd: birth reg Dec qtr 1859 and baptised 22 Jan 1860 St Anne, Soho (Westminster)

Yes - I also noticed the weird ages. I can't see any explanation other than ignorance. 1871 and 1881 are okay, but perhaps one of the children took over the paperwork! I haven't been able to find this family in 1851. Interestingly the baptism immediately after that of Louisa Lloyd was for a child with surname Galbraith - the maiden surname of Mary Jane Lloyd (with of James Richman Lloyd). I traced that Galbraith family in 1851 but no sign of this Lloyd family in the area.

[avm228]

Have you looked at this other Lloyd family*, possibly related?

Mary Ann bapt 1819 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of Swallow St
George Azariah bapt 1821 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of 20 Queen St
Frederick Edwin bapt 1825 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of Frances St
Emma bapt 1831 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of 21 Swallow St
Francis bapt 1835 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of Grosvenor Market, Oxford St
Emily bapt 1840 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of 58 King St

*Obviously no guarantees that they are all a single family.

The facts that the address on George Azariah Lloyd’s baptism is exactly the same as that on James Richman Lloyd’s baptism strikes me as significant (as well as both families spending time in Swallow St).

[avm228]

More on George Azariah Lloyd, a photographer: www.photohistory-sussex.co.uk/BtnLloydGA.htm

[linda51]

Have you looked at this other Lloyd family*, possibly related?

Mary Ann bapt 1819 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of Swallow St
George Azariah bapt 1821 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of 20 Queen St
Frederick Edwin bapt 1825 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of Frances St
Emma bapt 1831 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of 21 Swallow St
Francis bapt 1835 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of Grosvenor Market, Oxford St
Emily bapt 1840 St James Westminster to James (carpenter) & Mary, of 58 King St

*Obviously no guarantees that they are all a single family.

The facts that the address on George Azariah Lloyd’s baptism is exactly the same as that on James Richman Lloyd’s baptism strikes me as significant (as well as both families spending time in Swallow St).

I love this forum!!! Thank so much for that!! This has been a major brickwall........but I didn't want to complicate my message by adding this:
FURTHER READING:
In 2009/2010 I was contacted by other Lloyd researchers whose ancestors came from the Church Stretton area in Shropshire. They believe my George Lloyd (of George and Mary Ann) is connected to their family. Another researcher is the descendant of James Richman Lloyd and his marriage certificate (in Dublin, Ireland) gives his father’s occupation as Sailor! IF my George Lloyd is connected to the Church Stretton Lloyds, there is prior evidence of baptisms with middle names (some of which are fairly weird!) and the family usage of the forename Samuel and a marriage entry for their Samuel Lloyd was witnessed by George Lloyd and Mary ann Lloyd – both signed, dated 6th July 1828.  A visit to Church Stretton in 2010 proved a connection with London – and to Piccadilly in 1829. This family have strong ties with the Southwark area of London
A marriage between George Lloyd and Mary Ann Dell took place in 1815 in Southwark.
 How can I find out if they are the parents of my Samuel Orange Lloyd?

Are the Church Stretton Lloyds connected to “MY” George Lloyd? What happened to the siblings of Samuel Orange Lloyd?

I think in view of your post........I now need to accept the Church Stretton Lloyds - which include James and Mary as mine!! Thanks again.

[avm228]

The George Lloyd marriage to Mary Ann Dell (26 June 1815, Christ Church Southwark) was witnessed by a James Lloyd and Elizabeth Lloyd.