Author Topic: Can't decipher the first letter, 1642 document  (Read 837 times)

Offline tamarakel

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Can't decipher the first letter, 1642 document
« on: Thursday 18 June 20 12:03 BST (UK) »
I am having a hard time deciphering the first letter, I believe the name is Sutton, but I can't find a match for the first capital letter..
Kelly, Weatherhead, Wagner, Russell, Smiles (Smailes)

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Can't decipher the first letter, 1642 document
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 18 June 20 15:53 BST (UK) »
It's a peculiar one.  I've read hundreds of C17th documents & can't recall seeing another like it.

My view is that it can only be S or H - unless one takes the long curling line as pure adornment, in which case I/J becomes plausible.

Unfortunately either of S or H is a good match to -utton.

I suppose you have already looked for the same letter in another word in your document.


Offline SiGr

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Re: Can't decipher the first letter, 1642 document
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 18 June 20 15:55 BST (UK) »
How about ‘D’ as in ‘Dutton’ ?
(1) Janions of Cheshire, Lancashire, Hawaii, Vancouver and Seattle.
(2) Gregorys of Tarporley, Cheshire.
(3) Pughs of 'The New Pale' near Frodsham and Delamere in Cheshire.
(4) Nevills of Llanelly, Llangennech and Felinfoel.
(5) Yaldens of Ovington/Lovington in Hampshire.

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Can't decipher the first letter, 1642 document
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 18 June 20 16:00 BST (UK) »
How about ‘D’ as in ‘Dutton’ ?

In my view it doesn't have anything of the general form of a D of the era.

See:  https://www.english.cam.ac.uk/ceres/ehoc/alphabets/majuscules/D.html


Offline sugarbakers

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Re: Can't decipher the first letter, 1642 document
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 18 June 20 16:33 BST (UK) »
Does this help ?


Palaeography - Hilary Marshall

p35 Individual 'S'

Transcript [9] - Sirs (1593)

Transcript [9] - Seales (1593)
Almeroth, Germany (probably Hessen). Mawer, Softley, Johnson, Lancaster, Tatum, Bucknall (E.Yorks, Nfk, Lincs)

Sugar Refiners & Sugarbakers ... www.mawer.clara.net ...
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WDYTYA magazine July 2017

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Can't decipher the first letter, 1642 document
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 18 June 20 16:46 BST (UK) »
Thanks sb.  Those are excellent exemplars of S from the era.  As you can see, the curves are considerably more complex than the main curved element of tamarakel's example.

I'm leaning more towards it being an H.  Put your thumb over the left half of the curved element and you have an H.

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Can't decipher the first letter, 1642 document
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 18 June 20 18:26 BST (UK) »
I tend to see this as S.

I think sugarbakers' examples shown above are not that far from tamarakel's sample. In particular, the two short vertical strokes in the middle are very typical of a capital S. I’ve never seen such strokes on a capital H, and I can’t find any, but I’m very willing to be shown some.

Tamarakel, it would be very useful if there was a known capital H in this document, for comparison?

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Can't decipher the first letter, 1642 document
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 18 June 20 18:38 BST (UK) »
I was thinking of the parallel strokes plus the top and bottom wiggles together as constituting the vertical part of an H.

However, if one considers the top wiggle as an extension of the main curved element at its top and the bottom wiggle similarly for its bottom, then it looks more like an S.

Offline SiGr

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Re: Can't decipher the first letter, 1642 document
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 18 June 20 19:06 BST (UK) »
Hi, tamarakel,
Can you provide some more info on the document - maybe a wider photo ?
Regards,
Simon
(1) Janions of Cheshire, Lancashire, Hawaii, Vancouver and Seattle.
(2) Gregorys of Tarporley, Cheshire.
(3) Pughs of 'The New Pale' near Frodsham and Delamere in Cheshire.
(4) Nevills of Llanelly, Llangennech and Felinfoel.
(5) Yaldens of Ovington/Lovington in Hampshire.