I am hopelessly lost

[nicdigby]

I am in a real muddle.

Please can you help me to prove or disprove the following please; I've taken it from another tree and I want to know it's true and I am in a right muddle all round.

Kenneth Johnson b 26/3/23. Near Saltburn, Yorkshire. Kenneth died 14 Jan 1999. Surrey.

He had an older brother James Frederick Johnson born Dec 1915. Guisbro/Yorkshire d 1986 MMN Holt

Their father:

Ambrose Firby Johnson b 1886 MMN Kirk.
married Mabel Seth
Marriage
25 OCT 1909 • ST.JOHN EVANGELIST, MIDDLESBROUGH

1911 census:
Ambrose age 24 lives in Skelton, Cleveland and is a miner.
He lives with Mabel Johnson age 21 and they've been married 1 year.
It says they had had one child born alive but he or she had died.
So their first child died. What was he or she called?

The other tree has a Mabel Johnson born to the couple in 1911 and dying in 1918. Is this true?

Then Ambrose Firby Johnson from Grangetown, a steel smelter, age 39, gets on a ship ON HIS OWN to Bombay, from London, 6/3/1925.
But in April 1928 he comes back from Bombay to London with Mabel and Kenneth age 5.
When did Mabel and Kenneth go to Bombay? Why didn't they take their other child James with them?
The record suggests that he is going to live in Earls Court while his wife and child are going to a different location??

1939 Register:
Ambrose F Johnson born 8/4/86 fishmonger lives with Mabel Johnson b 25/10/89

Where has Kenneth gone in 1939? He would have been about 16. I know his future wife lived in India and they married in Egypt; but surely he hasn't left at the age of 16??

[avm228]

Given that both James and Kenneth had mother’s maiden name Holt recorded at birth, I am confused about Mabel’s name being Seth at marriage in 1909. She was a bit young to have been married before - have you looked into this discrepancy?

Re Kenneth in 1939 - he may well still be redacted, having died as recently as 1999. Have you looked at the family listing to see whether there are redacted entries?

[avm228]

I suggest the deceased baby was Frances Mabel Johnson, mother’s maiden name Seth, born & died Mar qtr 1910 Guisborough.

Subsequently born: Mabel Johnson, mother’s maiden name Seth, Sep qtr 1911 Guisborough.

[nicdigby]

Given that both James and Kenneth had mother’s maiden name Holt recorded at birth, I am confused about Mabel’s name being Seth at marriage in 1909. She was a bit young to have been married before - have you looked into this discrepancy?

Re Kenneth in 1939 - he may well still be redacted, having died as recently as 1999. Have you looked at the family listing to see whether there are redacted entries?

The Seth/Holt thing utterly confused me. I think she was Mabel Seth when she married but her father was probably Thomas Holt b 1857 and her mother Laura Seth b 1864 and it does not make sense to me.

1939 - definitely no redaction of Kenneth. Just the two adults Ambrose and Mabel at the West Street Carshalton address. So where did he go?

[nicdigby]

I suggest the deceased baby was Frances Mabel Johnson, mother’s maiden name Seth, born & died Mar qtr 1910 Guisborough.

Subsequently born: Mabel Johnson, mother’s maiden name Seth, Sep qtr 1911 Guisborough.

Thank you v much. Where did you find this? Not on FreeBMD or FindMyPast or Ancestry for me?

[CaroleW]

Mothers maiden names were only shown on the GRO index from the September qtr 1911.

Maiden names for birth registrations on freebmd prior to that date can be found on the GRO website using the freebmd info

You can also use the same site to search for a surname with a particular maiden name without having the freebmd ref.  Particularly useful with common surnames

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

If you have ordered certs online you will already have created a login id but if not - Registration is free

[nicdigby]

Mothers maiden names were only shown on the GRO index from the September qtr 1911.

Maiden names for birth registrations on freebmd prior to that date can be found on the GRO website using the freebmd info

You can also use the same site to search for a surname with a particular maiden name without having the freebmd ref.  Particularly useful with common surnames

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

If you have ordered certs online you will already have created a login id but if not - Registration is free

Thank you. I've now found the births of the two daughters in 1910 and 1911 - Ambrose is the father and MMN SETH.

Using the same thing I tried to find the brothers James F Johnson b Dec 1915 and Kenneth b 1923. They're not there. Tried with MMN Holt - bingo. What's going on? Did Ambrose remarry another woman also called Mabel?

[Jool]

Then Ambrose Firby Johnson from Grangetown, a steel smelter, age 39, gets on a ship ON HIS OWN to Bombay, from London, 6/3/1925.
But in April 1928 he comes back from Bombay to London with Mabel and Kenneth age 5.
When did Mabel and Kenneth go to Bombay? Why didn't they take their other child James with them?
The record suggests that he is going to live in Earls Court while his wife and child are going to a different location??

The Earls Court address belongs to the passenger listed above (66 Philbeach Gardens, Earls Court, London), it has spilled over onto the line below.  The address for Ambrose, Mabel and Kenneth is Staunton Lodge, Northampton Park, Canonbury, London.  I think there was a typo, if you Google STANTON Lodge, Northampton Park there are current images of the house.

That's one little mystery sorted 

[Jool]

From the GRO site.
Birth.  SETH, MABEL, MMN left blank (this usually suggests an illegitimate birth)
GRO Reference: 1890  M Quarter in GUISBROUGH  Volume 09D  Page 471

A year later, Mabel's mother married Thomas Holt.
FreeBMD Marriages Mar 1891, Guisbrough 9d 709   
Holt    Thomas   
Seth    Laura

Mabel probably took on her mother's new husband's name (he may even be the father).
I wonder if it depended on who registered the children's births whether they gave Seth or Holt as the MMN.