James Smith Parentage (Kilmaurs/Newton-on-Ayr)

[kjmck]

Hello

I'm looking for some help looking for the parents of the above James Smith. Below is the info I have on him. If anyone is able to help I would be very grateful!

Marriages

James married Agnes Thomson in 1828 (year assumed) at Galston. She died 4th August 1837. Together they had 5 children - John 1829, Jean 1830, Matthew 1832, James 1835, Thomas Cunnigham 1837.

James then married Jane Young on 11th November 1843 at Dalry. They had 8 children - Sarah Neill 1845, John 1846, Agnes 1849, William 1851, Alexander 1853, Marion 1855, Margaret Neill 1859, Janet 1861.

Death

13th April 1887 at Wheatyfauld Farm, Dalry. Age 83. Parents - John Smith (Tollkeeper/Deceased) & _ _ mother unknown. Informant was William Smith his son. (est. birth year of 1804).

1855

Birth record for Marion Smith, daughter. James' info - 44yo (est. birth year of 1811), birthplace - Newton-upon-Ayr.

Census Info

1841 - James 35, born Ayrshire. Coal Miner at Dalry.  (born 1806)
1851 - James 41, born Dalry. Farmer of 20 acres. (born 1810)
1861 - James 57, born Ayr, Ayrshire. Limestone Contractor. (born 1804)
1871 - James 66, born Ayr, Ayrshire. Farmer of 20 acres 'Arall'. (born 1805)
1881 - James 77, born Ayr, Ayrshire. Farmer 74 Arable Acres 1 Man 1 Woman. (born 1804)

So I have the father's name of John Smith, occupation is Tollkeeper according to the death record. If I rely on Scottish naming tradition for daughters, then James' mother may have been called Agnes or Marion, though he may have named his second daughter with Jane after his first wife Agnes.

The only baptism for a James Smith in Newton-upon-Ayr is 25/12/1811 to John Smith a Seaman & Marion McMillan, though that would mean he was roughly 16/17 when he married Agnes Thomson in 1838.
There is no baptism for a James Smith in Dalry to John Smith between 1800 and 1815.

So going off Census info & Marion's birth record in 1855 & also James' death record for information on James' birth year and birthplace....I can't seem to match info.

Any ideas?

Keelan

[q98]

FYI. James’ death Intimation was contained in the 22nd April 1887 edition of the Ardrossan & Saltcoats Herald. It recorded his place of death as Wheatyfields Dalry, Age 84 Years, Occupation Farmer. There was no indication of who placed the Intimation and no In Memoriam notices for anniversaries.

[kjmck]

Is an intimation the same as an obituary? How did you find this info? Thanks

[q98]

Basically yes. See here:
http://www.ayrshire-roots.co.uk/index1.php

Note the date shown in EVERY entry is the publication date of the Ardrossan & Saltcoats Herald. It is NOT the date of the occurrence (Birth, Death, etc.)

[MonicaL]

Hi Keelan

Just looking at the names of the children for John and Agnes. From these, was this Agnes' birth details I wonder:

Agnes THOMSON
MATHEW THOMSON/JEAN MITCHEL
03/11/1805
603/20 80
Loudoun

Monica
   

[MonicaL]

Possibility that John's mother was an Agnes Alexander.

I think this is their entry in 1851:

John Smith 76 Tollkeeper b. England
Agnes Smith 70 b. Ireland
Agnes Smith 26 b. Galston, AYR

Address: Loans, Dundonald, Ayrshire

At least 7 children showing for them in Ayrshire (Kilmaurs) including a James:

Robert 1803
James 1804
John 1806
Elizabeth 1808
Janet 1810
William 1812
Agnes 1813

James's details showing as:

James SMITH
JOHN SMITH/AGNES ALEXANDER
1/03/1804
598/10 303
Kilmaurs

Banns or marriage for John and Agnes show on 11 June 1803 Kilmaurs, Ayrshire.

Monica

[MonicaL]

Just seen that there are some Ancestry trees for this line (you need a subs to view).

They show the following details for the deaths of John and Agnes:

John - 28 JUNE 1860 Newhouse, Kilmaurs
Agnes - 5 JANUARY 1862 Mill Vennal, Kilmaurs

The original images of their death regs will hopefully help you further to the next generation.

Monica

[kjmck]

Hi Keelan

Just looking at the names of the children for John and Agnes. From these, was this Agnes' birth details I wonder:

Agnes THOMSON
MATHEW THOMSON/JEAN MITCHEL
03/11/1805
603/20 80
Loudoun

Monica

Hi Monica

This is the information I have taken for Agnes, which seemed to fit as the daughter is called Jean and the second born son was Matthew (who was my 4xGG).

[kjmck]

Possibility that John's mother was an Agnes Alexander.

I think this is their entry in 1851:

John Smith 76 Tollkeeper b. England
Agnes Smith 70 b. Ireland
Agnes Smith 26 b. Galston, AYR

Address: Loans, Dundonald, Ayrshire

At least 7 children showing for them in Ayrshire (Kilmaurs) including a James:

Robert 1803
James 1804
John 1806
Elizabeth 1808
Janet 1810
William 1812
Agnes 1813

James's details showing as:

James SMITH
JOHN SMITH/AGNES ALEXANDER
1/03/1804
598/10 303
Kilmaurs

Banns or marriage for John and Agnes show on 11 June 1803 Kilmaurs, Ayrshire.

Monica

I have this information also. There were other children to John Smith & Agnes Alexander - Margaret 1816Ik, Mary Ann 1817, William 1819, Margery 1822.

I think the reason I have misgivings about James' parents as John & Agnes, is because some information doesn't quite tie in. For example in the 1851 census you have sent there, the Occupation for John fits with the death record for James Smith in 1887. Yet in 1851 the age & birth year for Agnes doesn't fit in with her 1813 baptism. I have also found the 1841 census for this family - John Smith, 65, Labourer. Agnes 62. Agnes 19. There is a birth for an Agnes Smith to John Smith & Agnes Hopkins 1822 in Stewarton.

Also, I found an 1851 entry for an Agnes Smith in Paisley High Church.
Robert Laird, 39.
Janet Laird, 40. (Smith)
Robert Laird, 3.
Agnes Smith, 69. Mo-in-Law Born Kilmaurs.
Agnes Smith, 36. Born Kilmaurs c.1815
Margery Smith, 26. Born Kilmaurs c.1825

****

1861 Census for Agnes - Back in Kilmaurs, living at Mill Vennel. Aged 80 (1781). Robert Smith 57 (1804) Margaret Smith 37 (1824) Mary Ann Smith 35 (1826) Robert Gallon 61.
The birth years for Margaret & Mary Ann don't fit, but the death record for Agnes in 1862 states -
Agnes Smith, Widow of John Smith a Famer, 6th January 1862 aged 81 at Mill Vennal, Kilmaurs. Parents - James Alexander Farmer & Elizabeth Govan. Informant - Robert Smith, son.

The death record for John Smith 1860 states - John Smith, Farmer, Married (no wifes name) died 28th June 1860 aged 80, at Newhouse Kilmaurs. Son of William Smith (Farmer) & (no mothers name given). Informant - Robert Hodge, Farmer Docksthorn, son in law.

****

There is the 1851 census you noted, the occupation for John ties with death record for James.
 
The 1851 census I found, means perhaps that Agnes was visiting her daughter in Renfrewshire, so John (if the one who dies in 1860) was back in Kilmaurs. So may have to look for him in 1851.

The birth record for Marion Smith in 1855, states her father James (potentially son of John Smith & Agnes Alexander) was 44 so born around 1811 in Newton-upon-Ayr. Which differs from the baptism of James to John & Agnes in Kilmaurs in 1804. However the 1804 birth ties in with the age given on James' death record in 1887. And another spanner in my confusion is that in the 1861 census for James Smith his birth year is given as 1804 but in Ayr, not Kilmaurs.

I wish I could write this more coherently, but my thoughts on it are also muddled. So I apologise.

Keelan