Look up Charles Winter, Leeds

[Elaine01]

Thomas A. is her son.   Missing: Frank, Cissy,

[Jamjar]

Thomas A. is her son.   Missing: Frank, Cissy,

I have listed the births on the previous post. There is no Cissy, or other appropriate female with mother Hughes, in that date range/area.

Cissy is listed as a granddaughter, 1891, does not say who’s daughter she is:

1891: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7F6Q-DZM

Can you see Francis/Frank after 1891?

Jamjar

[Elaine01]

Cissy is listed in the 1891 Census as follows:

Hughes, John
Hughes, Annie
Hughes, Joseph (son)
Winter, Frank (Grandson)
Winter, Cissy. (Granddaughter)
Winter, Gertrude (Granddaughter)

John and Annie are Mary’s parents.   Cissy was listed as 4 years old.  All three grandchildren were born at Barnsley. 

Thank you for getting me all the information with respect to Mary’s children in the previous post.  I appreciate your help.

That is weird about Cissy. 

Elaine

[Jamjar]

I wonder if Cissy could be a pet name for Agnes Mary?

Can you see Agnes in 1891, I can’t?

Vincent in 1891: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7KYN-32M

Mother and son Thomas in 1891: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7223-22M

Father in 1891: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7NRJ-ST2

Possibly son Joseph in 1911: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VW-7L6

Jamjar

[Elaine01]

I am sorry I forgot to answer your question about Frank.   No, haven’t seen him after 1891.  I wonder if he is the child that died.   I will try and find a death certificate.

That is a good point about Cissy being a pet name.  But I have Cissy being born 1887 and Agnes being born 1885.   But, I might be completely wrong.  I will look into it and make sure I have the dates correct.  I think you are right.

Elaine

[Jamjar]

Frances wa born 1883, Agnes 1885, Gertrude 1887

1891 has them 1884, 1887, 1888.

Don’t rely on census dates.

What hard evidence do the online trees provide to prove the Charles wasn’t Mary’s son?

Jamjar

[Jamjar]

Who did Charles marry?

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
WILLS, ESTATES & GUARDIAN RECORDS
Name: Charles Leo Winter
Death: 1970 England

Jamjar

[Elaine01]

I can’t believe the dates are so different.  In the future I will be more cautious and check the dates.

The other Family Trees don't question that Mary might not be the mother.   But, they definitely must have proof that Thomas is not the father.   Although I can’t find any evidence on their family trees of this fact to back this assumption.   I am assuming that somehow they know for sure.  I have emailed them twice and haven’t received a reply. 

I was wondering if Mary was the mother only because on the census she states that she had eight children with seven being alive.  I was thinking that with Cissie she had 8 and it would be 9 with Charles.   But if there is no Cissie then it could be possible.   And then of course it seems that she and Thomas separated after Charles was born.

I might have to order the actual birth certificate.   I have ordered the death certificate.

Elaine

[Jamjar]

If Charles was the son of Agnes, she was only 15/16 when she had him. It would have shamed the family.

There have been previous cases of a granny registering an illegitimate child in her name. My grandmother had an illegitimate child and she used her father’s name as the father on the registration. Folk lied to save face.

However, those with the Ancestry tree may be assuming what you are, that Mary was too old to have Charles. She wasn’t.

There is no evidence that Mary and Thomas were separated. He simply may have had to be where the work was available.

Where and when did Thomas and Mary die?

Jamjar