Welch, Sarah c1820 Lichfield

[Mabel Bagshawe]

If Charles' death is registered in Kensington registration district, it's the area of London. Are you sure that's him? It says Charles S - there's a Charles Samuel Davis who dies and is buried in the right area at the right time

I can find Caroline on electoral registers in Surrey from 1931 onwards - no Charles with her at any time

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Emily Mary Violet Withers was born in 1859 (Birth Registration; West Bromwich, 2nd Qtr 1859, Vol 6B P589). She became a governess by the 1881 Census, and married Frederick Crowther (1863-1925) in 1895. (Marriage Registration; Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, 11 April 1895, p8. Vol 11a p877 to Frederick Crowther (1863-1925) (Ancestry) ). They had one son, Henry Frederick G Crowther, born and died in 1895. No occupation for the husband Frederick. His death registration 1925 Vol 11a P395 at Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire.

From the Census for 1881 Emily M V Withers was in the household of Alfred Cresswell, Edgbaston (Warwick), Worcestershire, England; (citing p. 28, Piece/Folio 2956/53) The National Archives, Kew, Surrey (FamilySearch).

But where and when did she die?

How do you know Henry Crowther is their child? Mother's maiden name on GRO index is Smith

Added: and I can;t find the death registration for Frederick you quote. There's a Frederick Crowther aged 62 registered in Newport, Vol 11a p 342. Is that him?

[Mabel Bagshawe]

The Frederick who dies in Newport can be found there on the 1921 census. He was b Crumlin, Mons in c1862 so can be traced back to 1911 where he's with his wife of 28 years. They can be found together in 1891. so not Emily's husband

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Have found Emily and Frederick on 1911 in Thornton Heath, near Croydon. He was born c1850 and she's down as born c1863. Can;t find them on Familysearch to give you a link, but on Ancestry he's indexed as Gentleman Frederick Crowther. No children dead or alive to the marriage.

Likely death

Frederick Crowther
Death Age:    80
Registration Q3 1930
Croydon Vol:    2a p   328

Possible

Emily M Crowther
Death Age:    71
Q3  1931
Croydon Vol 2a p 344

Added: 1921 in Lewisham. Emily is listed as Violet and age 10 years out

[Ratty2]

The Frederick Crowther (1863-1925) I found was in Wales at Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, for his marriage and the minister was John Gower-Jones, his wife's brother-in-law.
My assumption is that they stayed in Wales hence his death in 1925: "England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVH4-FFP1 : 3 November 2021), Frederick Crowther, 1925.

That's why I doubt the Croydon reference as she was certainly born in 1859 at Handsworth Staffordshire.

Happy to remove Henry Frederick G Crowther as their son if that boy had a different mother.

David

[Ratty2]

Hi Mabel Bagshawe, "there's a Charles Samuel Davis"
Ok, but at her wedding she was clear her hubby was Charles Seymour Davis.
I haven't found any other ref to him as yet in Ancestry, FindMyPast or FamilySearch.
So, if you can't find him either, it just assures me I haven't missed him somewhere.
Curious how some folks can slip through the red tape.
David

[wivenhoe]

In researching the origins of Sarah WELCH marr. Edwin WITHERS 1837 are there clues in the given names of their children, which might be family names of close ancestors.

GRO births
WITHERS, William Edward   mms.     WELCH 
1838  DecQ      Aston Union      Vol 16  Page 160

WITHERS, Clara Harriet       mms.     WELCH 
1841  MarQ      Aston Union      Vol 16  Page 173

WITHERS, Amelia               mms.       WELCH 
1843  JunQ       Aston Union     Vol 16  Page 180

WITHERS, Samuel Francis   mms.    WELCH 
1845  MarQ       Birmingham     Vol 16  Page 321

WITHERS, Sarah Elizabeth  mms.       WELCH 
1846  DecQ       Birmingham    Vol 16  Page 303

WITHERS, Edwin Frederick  mms.     WELCH 
1848  SepQ       Aston Union    Vol 16  Page 182

WITHERS, Fanny Louisa      mms.     WELCH 
1849  DecQ       Aston Union    Vol 16  Page 170

WITHERS, Augustus Henry  mms.     WELCH 
1851  SepQ       Aston              Vol 16  Page 230

WITHERS, Caroline Rosina   mms.     WELCH 
1853  MarQ       Aston              Vol 06D  Page 271

WITHERS, Walter Herbert    mms.     WELCH 
1854  DecQ       Aston              Vol 06D  Page 254

WITHERS, Charles Ernest    mms.     WELCH 
1856  DecQ       West Bromwich Vol 06B  Page 518

WITHERS, Emily Mary         mms.     WELCH 
1859  JunQ       West Bromwich Vol 06B  Page 589

WITHERS, Alfred Weston Pitt  mms.   WELCH 
1861  SepQ       West Bromwich Vol 06B  Page 571

WITHERS, George Arundell Joseph    mms.    WELCH 
1865  SepQ       West Bromwich Vol 06B  Page 652

WITHERS, Joseph Thomas       mms.     WELCH 
1867  JunQ       West Bromwich Vol 06B  Page 742

WITHERS, Florence Webb        mms.     WELCH 
1863  JunQ      West Bronwich  Vol 06B  Page 647

[Ratty2]

Yes, Thank you. All of those names I have traced and they are all related; it's the tracking of the girls especially, to verify their deaths and the occupation of their husbands that is often missing.

WITHERS, Clara Harriet       mms.     WELCH
1841  MarQ      Aston Union      Vol 16  Page 173 married John Shorten in 1865. He was from Ashley Lodge Bristol, but I can't find either his death nor Clara's death.

WITHERS, Amelia               mms.       WELCH
1843  JunQ       Aston Union     Vol 16  Page 180 married   Francis John Cressel in 1868 ; he died in 1890 (Aston: Vol 6d p233) but I can't find her death date.

WITHERS, Sarah Elizabeth  mms.       WELCH
1846  DecQ       Birmingham    Vol 16  Page 303; she married Alfred Cressell's in 1868; she died 3rd Qtr 1927 (1927 Birmingham South, Warwickshire, Vol 6D, p181)

WITHERS, Fanny Louisa      mms.     WELCH
1849  DecQ       Aston Union    Vol 16  Page 170 married a photographer William John Cornwill/Cornwell/Cornwall in 1880 St George Hanover Sq, lived at Teddington. Can't find her death.

WITHERS, Caroline Rosina   mms.     WELCH
1853  MarQ       Aston              Vol 06D  Page 271 married Charles Seymour Davis in 1882, lived at Solihull, but her death could be in Surrey 1946 at Rose Acre Nursing Home, Priorsfield Road, Compton, Guildford. (Thanks to Mabel)

WITHERS, Emily Mary         mms.     WELCH
1859  JunQ       West Bromwich Vol 06B  Page 589 married Frederick Crowther in 1895 at St Margaret's church, Merthyr Tydfil, where her sister had married Rev'd John Gower Jones. But am looking for her death. Her hubby died Q4 1925 at Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, but where she went I can't find.

WITHERS, Florence Webb        mms.     WELCH
1863  JunQ      West Bronwich  Vol 06B  Page 647, married Revd John Gower-Jones at Felinfoel, Carmarthenshire, Wales (Llanelly Carmarthenshire, MC Index Vol 11a p1323) She died Q1 1937Pontypridd Glamorganshire and had an Obit in Western Mail, Cardiff, South Glamorgan 1 April 1937. So, she is accounted for.

I doubt very much these children as Sarah was 45 and 47 by then. The father has to be Edwin Withers. I think these must be another family.

WITHERS, George Arundell Joseph    mms.    WELCH
1865  SepQ       West Bromwich Vol 06B  Page 652

WITHERS, Joseph Thomas       mms.     WELCH
1867  JunQ       West Bromwich Vol 06B  Page 742

[Mabel Bagshawe]

That's why I doubt the Croydon reference as she was certainly born in 1859 at Handsworth Staffordshire.

The Emily  in Croydon in 1911 is definitely yours - Emily Mary Violet born Handsworth. I don;t think they moved very far after that. The marriage in Merthyr is a bit of a conundrum!

There's this possible death - he was 61 on 1911

Frederick Crowther
Death Age:    80
Registration Q3 1930 
Croydon Vol 2a, p328

I haven't found a burial or probate to help confirm if it's him

Added: if you look at my reply no 29 from yesterday you'll see that the Newport death is fairly unlikely to be your Frederick as there's a local chap that fits (and given the details from 1911, the age is wrong)