Samuel Jones

[Betty.W]

Please help - I am trying to find the parents/mother of Samuel Jones born 1840 in Denbigh/Denbighshire. On Samuel's marriage certificate (in 1859) it gives his father as Samuel occupation Publican. Unfortunately there are lots of Samuels with a father also Samuel, so I just don't know which one is the correct one.I also haven't found Samuels DOB  Samuel and Emma Jenkins were married in Exeter Devon any help would be most appreciated. Thank you.

[Brentor boy]

According to Free BMD, three births were registered in Denbighshire in the name of Samuel Jones during 1840.
Samuel Charles March Q Wrexham . Samuel. June Q St Asaph. Samuel December Q Corwen.
Free Reg has the baptism of Samuel Charles, 1 April 1840, Wrexham. Parents Joseph and Mary.
Samuel  16 April 1840, Denbigh. Parents Thomas and Jane.
Family Search has a Samuel living in Corwen with adults Edward and Ann.
I think you may have to extend your perameters of search

[Betty.W]

Thank you but my Samuel's father was definitely Samuel - as his father's name on his marriage cert to Emma Jenkins states.

[goldfinch99]

Hi, I'm Betty's cousin.  We are going wider, we're each searching separately and then trying to compare notes on anything interesting.

So our Samuel said he was 19 when he married in December 1859.  By census 1861 he's listed as in the army, age 21, in a barracks of men who are all aged 21.

So that should put our Samuel's birth between December to about March (maybe to June) 1840 for registration on BMD.

Samuel puts different things for his place of birth on censuses, all but one say Denbighshre.  Llanarmon, Wrexham, Denbigh.  Except for the odd one out where he's listed as Cardiff.

So we focused on a Samuel, son of Samuel, born in Llanarmon yn Ial, Denbighshire.  The only problem is that that Samuel was born about April 1839 and his father wasn't a publican but a nailer.

I don't particularly care that the Llanarmon yn Ial Samuel was a nailer rather than publican -- maybe our Samuel thought it sounded more impressive to tell his fiancee that his dad was a publican instead of a nailer?  But that doesn't fix the problem with the month of birth.

It seems from eyeballing all these Samuel Jones's in the censuses that every single one is 'taken', ie  it's possible to follow them from census to census.  But our one should disappear in 1861 when he's already joined the army.  Samuel son of Samuel and Eleanor does disappear and hasn't been claimed by any other family trees on Ancestry.  All the other trees on Ancestry that have the Samuel and Eleanor family have assigned the incorrect son Samuel to their family.  That means that their Samuel hasn't been correctly located in the 1851 census, and neither has our Samuel.  It would be ideal if they were one and the same.  But how can they be the same one if one was born April 1839 and the other wasn't born for another 7 months?

[goldfinch99]

This sounds ridiculous, but could our Samuel, when he married, have told the vicar that he was 19 instead of 20?

I can't think of a reason for him doing that as his new wife was already 20, so even if he lied about his father's occupation there's no logical reason to lie about his age. 

[Gadget]

Hello

I've looked and found the same Samuels as you and also gone through the 1841 and 1851 censuses for Denbigh itself looking for a Samuel, publican. I've not found any that fit as yet.

Could it be that your Samuel was illegitimate and gave his own name for his father?  My grandfather did the same on his marriage certificate.


Gadget


Add - neither the non-conformist registers or  freereg have anyone matching these parametrs.

[trish1120]

Is this possibly him in 1851 in Lancashire?

Griffith Evans   46
Elizth Evans   43
Edwin Evans   21
Samuel Jones   12 Nephew born Darxgernices, Denbighshire (as transcribed)****
Hugh Jones   17 Visitor same place of birth
Elizth Dunning   56

Griffith Evans is born same place but in 1861 is born Toole Farn Dangermie, Derbyshire, England
Image is Denbighshire**, not Derbyshire.

[goldfinch99]

Hello

I've looked and found the same Samuels as you and also gone through the 1841 and 1851 censuses for Denbigh itself looking for a Samuel, publican. I've not found any that fit as yet.

Could it be that your Samuel was illegitimate and gave his own name for his father?  My grandfather did the same on his marriage certificate.


Gadget


Add - neither the non-conformist registers or  freereg have anyone matching these parametrs.

I never thought of that explanation for the father's name.   There are a number of explanations why a Samuel sr wouldn't be in a census...he could have died, the mother could have remarried, the children could have been informally adopted.  So I think we will have to just focus on what we do know about our Samuel, which is that he should have been registered first quarter 1840 and born somewhere in Wales...and it has to be someone not living in Wales in 1861 or thereafter.

I think the key might be to find an organisation system to track all of these men called Samuel Jones who were born in the right time and place.

[goldfinch99]

Is this possibly him in 1851 in Lancashire?

Griffith Evans   46
Elizth Evans   43
Edwin Evans   21
Samuel Jones   12 Nephew born Darxgernices, Denbighshire (as transcribed)****
Hugh Jones   17 Visitor same place of birth
Elizth Dunning   56

Griffith Evans is born same place but in 1861 is born Toole Farn Dangermie, Derbyshire, England
Image is Denbighshire**, not Derbyshire.

Just glancing through the records I can't see a Samuel born Llangerniew to fit that one in Toxteth, Lancs.  I can see there is at least one born there, but it'll take a bit more work to see if it's the same one who's maybe been orphaned and moved in with relatives in Liverpool.

Definitely worth looking into.  Thanks!