Death of Annie Keen, formerly Brown, nee Johnston, 1932

[Peggy13]

Hello Mckha439. You probably do have the correct Bryan but it seems that he is not connected to the Robert Brown that we are TRYING to sort out.
Getting back to Robert Brown and his brother John Edward (I have ordered John's birth certificate and should get in a few days) - anyway, family story is that John married Robert's wife's widowed sister (this is new information) so perhaps if Robert married a Thornhill, then so did John, but her first name would not also be Frances. And I have John's wife's dod as May 30, 1975 which is perhaps her burial date as you found, jonw65 and burial place as Agecourt. Hmmm. Maybe we are onto something here.
Robert Bernard Brown's birth record should have his mother's first name.
Wild speculation - I see a Frances Hudson on that 1911 census that you sent the link for. If she first married a Thornhill (Frances' brother) and then John Brown, John's wife would also be Frances Thornhill and the relationship to Robert's wife would be widowed sister-in-law, not widowed sister. But she would be abt 10 yr. older than John. Oh dear, I think I am getting a headache.
Peggy

[jonw65]

Is this the marriage you are referring to?
March 1941 Salford 8d 1119
Brown, John E. - spouse Thornhill   
Thornhill, Frances - spouse Brown
(Salford Register Office or Registrar Attended)

The free index to the 1939 Register has a Frances Brown (Thornhill) b 1914, living in Chorley, could that be her?

Also in the free index
Birth, March 1939 Salford 8d 429
Thornhill,  George E   
mother Lee   

Marriage, June 1934 Salford 8d 845
Lee / Leigh, Frances - spouse Thornhill
Thornhill, George - spouse Lee / Leigh

There was a George Thornhill age 2 in that Hudson / Thornhill family in 1911, a brother of Frances
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1Q-ZZF

George's date of birth from the father's army record was 26.4.1908

Death
June 1940 Salford 8d 779
Thornhill, George   
age 32

Possible death of Frances Brown/Thornhill, nee Lee?
August 1996 Salford
Frances Brown
d-o-b 5 January 1914

Could this all be coming together somehow?
Robert marries Frances Thornhill
John Edward marries the widow of Frances's brother George.
Possible!

[jonw65]

Pop that date into the 1939 Register free index
Frances Brown, b 1910, in Salford C.B., Lancashire
Address 50 Walmer Street, Bury

And putting George's date of birth in
Brings up
George Thornhill, b 1908, in Salford C.B.
address 53 Walmer Street, Bury

[jonw65]

George Thornhill buried 1 June 1940, Greater Manchester
Cemetery appears to be Weaste
Three others in grave

Frances Brown buried 28 August 1996, Greater Manchester
Date of death 17 August 1996
Same cemetery (Weaste)
Three others in grave
Was she buried with George?

ADDED
George Edward Thornhill
Died August 1991, Salford
d-o-b 10 January 1939

Died 6 Aug 1991,
Buried 15 Aug 1991
At Weaste / three others in grave

Do you have a death for John Edward Brown?

[Peggy13]

You've done it, jonw65! This all fits the family story perfectly. So the brothers did both marry a Frances Thornhill. I had that John's wife Frances was born 1915 in Barton, Lancashire, which is fairly close to correct date of Jan 5, 1914. But I mistakenly had the dod of John's wife as 1975 which is the dod of Robert's wife. I've now straightened that out.
I had John's dod as 1965 but couldn't find it. It looks like perhaps Frances Lee/Thornhill/Brown is buried with George and maybe their son George Edward, even maybe John Edward Brown if there are 4 buried together.
The rest of the story was that the brothers fell out after John married who we now know was George's widow, as it was felt that she remarried too soon - George Thornhill died June 1940, Frances remarried to John Mar 1941. Now if we had George Edward's obit, we might find living relatives.
John reportedly worked for Thomson Leng publishers in Salford before his death. I was trying to research that. Apparently, John Leng and D.C. Thomson merged businesses but I didn't find the names of employees.
So we have made wonderful progress on Annie's children, thanks to all of you,  but still haven't found Annie's death probably between 1932-1944. Or Robert Bernard Keen possibly abt 1935.
Thanks again so  very much.
Peggy

[jonw65]

Hi Peggy
It is a bit weird, two Frances Thornhills! Sorry if there was a falling out, hope it was temporary (they often are)
I think the death of John Edward could be important somehow.

I may have an idea (a theory is better perhaps!) about what happened to Annie
But it may be all wrong! That would spoilt things!
So I don't know whether to post it (red herrings, wild goose chases, etc)
Then again the idea could be examined, disproved, put out of the way?
John

[jonw65]

OK, I'll post it, see what you think!
Is it just possible that Annie married as Brown to George Marsden in Salford 1917?
Sep 1917 Salford 8d 198
George Marsden
+
Annie Brown

Interestingly, when George Harry Brown married Eliza Burgess in 1920, it was witnessed by Thomas Marsden and Florence Marsden
It's that marriage image again (sorry!)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3MJ-2S87-4

I did have a candidate for George Marsden, his wife Hannah Bertha died in 1915. And he had a daughter Florence (but not a son Thomas!) However I have found a likely marriage for Florence online, and the signature looks different.
So I leave George's possible identity hanging for a bit!

Anyway, there is a death
Sep 1936 Salford 8d 318
Marsden, Annie   
age 66   

Burial of Annie Marsden, 16 September 1936, Greater Manchester
Cemetery is Weaste
Says one other in grave
Who is that other person? George Marsden? Someone else, related or not?

I do have a suspicion that it might be a John Edward Brown buried with her. The death of your JEB is a bit of a puzzle, nothing much for him in Salford, so I have been looking at the free burial index on Deceased Online for clues. Yes, John Edward might be buried with Frances, but he might not.

There is a John Edward Brown buried Greater Manchester, I believe at Weaste, 11 June 1959, date of death 6 June 1959.
It says there is one other person in that grave.

So which death is that burial for? There are two plain Johns who died in Lancashire or Cheshire that quarter (Leigh, St Helens) and only one John E, who does happen to match yours on age (which is why I was interested)
June 1959 Wirral 10a   681
Brown, John E.
age 56

The new GRO death index does not extend as far as 1959, so don't have full name. It seems that two of those who have the same GRO ref (are on same page on FreeBMD) died in early June. Could your John have died out of area for some reason?

[Peggy13]

You know what, jonw65, you just might be right about Annie. Her age at death is perfect to be the elusive Annie. And the year of death is in the right timeframe. Also, maybe JEB is buried with her. I don't know where Wirral is. Perhaps John travelled in his job with Thomson Leng. The age is right for JEB, born 1902.
On someone's tree, I found that Eliza Burgess (George Harry's wife) had parents Thomas Burgess and Emily Marsden. Maybe Emily Marsden had a brother Thomas. Confusing.
The descendant that I have been talking to said that it was believed that Annie never legally married Robert Bernard Keen, but she never mentioned a Marsden. However, doesn't mean that Annie did not marry a Marsden. I guess the marriage record would give whether Annie Brown was a widow or not, and if we are lucky, her age (instead of just "full age") and witnesses might be useful.
Thanks for throwing this out there for consideration.
Peggy

[jonw65]

Hi
Well I am now looking at a family tree on ancestry ( I don't usually do this of course!)
According to which a brother of Emily Marsden (mother of Eliza Burgess) was George, in fact the very George I mentioned before, with the wife Hannah Bertha (married Hull 1893)

I can't say whether they have the right George later, but anyway, we are then both meaning the one who seems to have been widowed in 1915.
That one did have rather a large family in the census, and I don't know where Thomas comes in
 
Daughter Florence is said to have married George Frank Hammond in 1926, but her age is wrong, and her father George is a wood turner on the cert.
I thought the marriage for Florence might be to Ernest Cordwell at Weaste in 1925, age 25, father George a Builder's Labourer (which all matches the last census)
I am not convinced her signature looks so much like that of the witness on George Harry's marriage though (perhaps it changed?)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSN5-LGL