Author Topic: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.  (Read 913 times)

Offline groom

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Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
« on: Sunday 11 October 20 21:53 BST (UK) »
Posting here as it includes Brecon and Radnorshire and Liandod, and Hereford, and London, and Gloucestershire!
Greensleeves and I are working on the history of a mill in Wales. We have discovered a mystery with one branch. This is what we know:

Beatrice Mary Selena Renders was born September quarter 1869 Builth, Brecknockshire, Wales., motherís maiden name Phillips. We can find no marriage of a Sarah Phillips and a Renders apart from one in Kensington, London in March quarter 1869 when a Sarah Louise Phillips married and Alfred Hector Maximillian Renders. There is no sign of this man either before or after the marriage.

In 1871 Beatrice (listed as Mary Renders)  and her mother Sarah Renders (married) are with Sarahís mother Selina Phillips in Builth. No sign of her father, but Sarah says she is a seamstress, wife of a teacher.

In the June quarter 1872, Sarah Renders married Alfred Handley in Builth. They are together in 1881 with several children. Beatrice is still with her grandmother.

1891 Beatrice is back with her mother and stepfather in Maesmynis.

In 1911 Beatrice is in Gloucestershire with her "husband" Henry Froggatt, born 1862 Holme Lacy Herefordshire, a commercial traveller in farm machinery. They claim to be married 15 years, but again no sign of a marriage. Interesting that in this census Beatrice claims to be born in London. They donít have any children. In 1901 Henry is lodging in Cumberland but it doesnít give his status.

Beatrice M S Froggatt dies in Abergavenny 1933 aged 64.

Can anyone find:
Another Phillips/Renders marriage.
A marriage for Beatrice Renders to Henry Froggatt
Beatrice Renders/Froggatt in 1901
Any sign of the mysterious Alfred Hector Maximillian Renders.

We know we could get the marriage certificate and Beatriceís birth, but as it is a distant branch donít want to unless really necessary.

Thanks
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline avm228

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Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 11 October 20 22:31 BST (UK) »
The 1869 marriage looks likely to have been Catholic. The other couple on the page, Patrick Brosnihan and Ellen Nunan, feature in an online tree which says that they married on 10 January 1869 at St Francis of Assisi Catholic Church, Pottery Lane, Notting Hill.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline avm228

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Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 11 October 20 22:34 BST (UK) »
Beatriceís birthdate looks likely to have been around June or July 1869 - going by her age of 1yr 9mo in the 1871 census.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)


Offline groom

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Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 11 October 20 22:53 BST (UK) »
The 1869 marriage looks likely to have been Catholic. The other couple on the page, Patrick Brosnihan and Ellen Nunan, feature in an online tree which says that they married on 10 January 1869 at St Francis of Assisi Catholic Church, Pottery Lane, Notting Hill.

Thanks, so that confirms a Sarah Louise Phillips did marry a Renders. Unfortunately although some London marriages are on line, that one doesn't appear to be. Odd why we can't find him before or after. If it is the right marriage it must have been him who was Catholic as her family weren't.
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline avm228

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Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 11 October 20 23:21 BST (UK) »
Are you aware of Mabel Elizabeth Renders, birth reg Sep qtr 1871 Builth, died Jun qtr 1873 Builth?
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline groom

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Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
« Reply #5 on: Monday 12 October 20 00:00 BST (UK) »
Yes spotted that one, which is a huge coincidence. The GRO has no mother's maiden name for her which is a nuisance.
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Offline Annette7

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Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
« Reply #6 on: Monday 12 October 20 02:25 BST (UK) »
A single tree on ancestry also has the marriage date as 10/1/1869 (like the other couple) - no source given, of course, but does state Alfred's father was named Jean Baptiste Renders and that Alfred was bc.1843.

Annette

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Offline avm228

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Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
« Reply #7 on: Monday 12 October 20 08:32 BST (UK) »
Jean Baptiste Renders has a Belgian feel to me.

I wonder what Alfredís teaching subject was (a language, perhaps?).
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Online jonw65

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Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
« Reply #8 on: Monday 12 October 20 09:29 BST (UK) »
The 1869 marriage looks likely to have been Catholic. The other couple on the page, Patrick Brosnihan and Ellen Nunan, feature in an online tree which says that they married on 10 January 1869 at St Francis of Assisi Catholic Church, Pottery Lane, Notting Hill.

Same page ref back in 1869, so the marriage is in the Registrar's book, either it took place at the Register Office or the registrar was in attendance.
Bur not necessarily catholic...

It seems that the Notting Hill marriage of Brosnihan and Nunan is available online (England Roman Catholic Parish Marriages) But no Renders marriage is indexed there :(