Martha Downs

[jrainbrim]

What details are given on Josephs birth certificate - what was his fathers occupation

Joseph Barns. Mothers maiden name Downs. Father Samuel Barns. Occupation, Sailor.
The writing on the certificate is not very clear though.
Downs, could be something else I suppose.

[rosie99]

The 1824 marriage that you have gives Martha's surname as Frake, she is a widow.  Do you have her earlier marriage. 

Where do you have Martha on the 1861 census, Samuels entry indicates she is in the union.  You mention that someone has located her with a child

[Little Nell]

I'm beginning to wonder if all these threads actually tie up properly.

Personally I cannot see how Samuel can have been a gipsy labourer in 1861, having been a sailor in 1852.  That particular 1861 census page is missing the last all-important column, the place of birth.  So we don't know where any of those three was born.  We need another census, preferably 1871.  But unfortunately, Samuel could have died by then, Joseph would have been 18 and maybe already out in the world.  Given that Henry and Joseph would appear to be brothers, albeit with a 20 year age gap, can Henry be found with Samuel in previous 1851 census?

When did Joseph die, please?  Have you worked backwards from that point to locate him on every census, matching up the birth-places each time to ensure that you have the correct Joseph (there are a lot of them about  )?  I see that you say that 1871 and 1881 census has the incorrect birthplace.  Do the children's names and wife's name otherwise match?  Do their birth-places match with the birth certificates?  Is there any possibility that there has been some mis-identification at some point.   

And it is still possible that Samuel did not marry Martha, even though they might have said they were married. 

Nell

[rosie99]

1891 Joseph born Brighton, Sussex
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HMNX-MZM

1901 Joseph born Brighton, Sussex
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X91G-5SM

1911 census born Isle of Wight
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXH-235

[rosie99]

I am also not convinced about the information before 1881 census. I also have doubts about Gipsy & Sailor.   I am still looking to see what I can locate 

[rosie99]

Joseph and Ellen/Eleanors children

BARNES, SAMUEL  JAMES     mmn WILLIAMS 
GRO Reference: 1878  June Quarter in DOVER  Volume 02A  Page 909

BARNES, ANN  MARTHA     mmn WILLIAMS 
GRO Reference: 1880  Dec Quarter in SHEPPEY  Volume 02A  Page 819

BARNES, WILLIAM       mmn WILLIAMS 
GRO Reference: 1883  June Quarter in PONTYPRIDD  Volume 11A  Page 371

BARNES, MARY       mmn WILLIAMS 
GRO Reference: 1889  Sept Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL  Volume 11A  Page 595

[jrainbrim]

The 1824 marriage that you have gives Martha's surname as Frake, she is a widow.  Do you have her earlier marriage. 

Where do you have Martha on the 1861 census, Samuels entry indicates she is in the union.  You mention that someone has located her with a child

I cannot find her earlier marriage. I have not found her in 1861, dont know which area she is in exactly.Not sure the Martha with another child is my Martha either.

[jrainbrim]

Joseph and Ellen/Eleanors children

BARNES, SAMUEL  JAMES     mmn WILLIAMS 
GRO Reference: 1878  June Quarter in DOVER  Volume 02A  Page 909

BARNES, ANN  MARTHA     mmn WILLIAMS 
GRO Reference: 1880  Dec Quarter in SHEPPEY  Volume 02A  Page 819

BARNES, WILLIAM       mmn WILLIAMS 
GRO Reference: 1883  June Quarter in PONTYPRIDD  Volume 11A  Page 371

BARNES, MARY       mmn WILLIAMS 
GRO Reference: 1889  Sept Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL  Volume 11A  Page 595

William is my grandfather. My mother was his youngest child. I never met him. He died before my mother left school.

[jrainbrim]

I'm beginning to wonder if all these threads actually tie up properly.

Personally I cannot see how Samuel can have been a gipsy labourer in 1861, having been a sailor in 1852.  That particular 1861 census page is missing the last all-important column, the place of birth.  So we don't know where any of those three was born.  We need another census, preferably 1871.  But unfortunately, Samuel could have died by then, Joseph would have been 18 and maybe already out in the world.  Given that Henry and Joseph would appear to be brothers, albeit with a 20 year age gap, can Henry be found with Samuel in previous 1851 census?
I

When did Joseph die, please?  Have you worked backwards from that point to locate him on every census, matching up the birth-places each time to ensure that you have the correct Joseph (there are a lot of them about  )?  I see that you say that 1871 and 1881 census has the incorrect birthplace.  Do the children's names and wife's name otherwise match?  Do their birth-places match with the birth certificates?  Is there any possibility that there has been some mis-identification at some point.   

And it is still possible that Samuel did not marry Martha, even though they might have said they were married. 

Nell

I cannot find Samuel or Henry in 1851.
The birth places are correct for everyone except Joseph in 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911. My mother always said her father, William, was born in Isle of Wight, but I now know this to be incorrect he was born in Wales.The only Joseph Barnes I found born in 1852 died in the same year. So I don't know why J states he was  on there, did the census recorder mishear the place of birth given? Could Lewes Brighton be mistaken for I ofW?