Author Topic: Was there a purge ?  (Read 810 times)

Offline Andrew Tarr

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Was there a purge ?
« on: Monday 02 November 20 17:52 GMT (UK) »
I am transcribing Catholic marriage records for what seems to have been an Irish ghetto in 1880s Liverpool.  Typically there are about 30 per year.  For May to September 1885 there were one or two per month.  Then in October we find no fewer than 18 (yes, eighteen) marriages with a few more in November, after which things return to normal.  Most of these couples give addresses in just two streets.  I wonder if the local priests (or bishop) decided that a den of iniquity was in progress and sent in a task force ?
Tarr, Tydeman, Liversidge, Bartlett, Young

Offline PaulineJ

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Re: Was there a purge ?
« Reply #1 on: Monday 02 November 20 18:17 GMT (UK) »
maybe it was a simple as they gave a discount on the usual charges for the marriage ceremony.

The address given could be as simple as a suitacse moving in for the period of the banns.
Usual addresses are often those "of convenience" to save on costs.

Pauline

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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Was there a purge ?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 02 November 20 19:58 GMT (UK) »
Did that pattern happen only in 1885? Was there a similar pattern at other Liverpool R.C. churches?
Were occupations stated?
Suggestions:
They were marrying before emigrating. Relatives could have come over from Ireland to be witnesses and bid them farewell.
They were seasonal labourers who met during the summer and decided to marry before returning to Ireland for winter. They might have been moving around the county and further if they were agricultural workers or navvies, returning to winter quarters in Liverpool.
The men were construction workers who'd made money during the summer and their girlfriends were keen to get them married before the the money disappeared. (Just too early for the Manchester Ship Canal.)
You may be correct about the clerical moral crusade. There might have been a new priest or bishop or a mission. Did any have children before marriage?
Pauline may be right about a discount. Were any on the same day, a sort of BOGOF offer? There was an old Irish priest in my family's parish who had been trying for a long time to persuade a parishioner to "do the right thing" by the mother of his child - "I'll marry ye for nothin'" he told the man.
February was the popular month for weddings in Mayo, before Lent began. Few during spring and summer until the young men returned from harvest work in England.
Cowban


Offline mazi

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Re: Was there a purge ?
« Reply #3 on: Monday 02 November 20 20:08 GMT (UK) »
Looking at the north docks area for instance, on the nls maps, inland from Sandon dock there are streets and streets of terraced houses in 1890 which were not there in 1875.

My understanding is that these were built en masse, and released for rental all at the same time.
Once you had a house you got married.

Mike

Offline Andrew Tarr

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Re: Was there a purge ?
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 03 November 20 14:44 GMT (UK) »
Did that pattern happen only in 1885?  (see below)
Was there a similar pattern at other Liverpool R.C. churches?  no idea, sorry
Were occupations stated? no
Suggestions:
They were marrying before emigrating. Relatives could have come over from Ireland to be witnesses and bid them farewell.  Just one year looks unlikely?
You may be correct about the clerical moral crusade. There might have been a new priest or bishop or a mission. Did any have children before marriage?  can't tell from these figures
Pauline may be right about a discount. Were any on the same day, a sort of BOGOF offer? there were several on Oct.14th and nine in that week
February was the popular month for weddings in Mayo, before Lent began. Few during spring and summer until the young men returned from harvest work in England.

Thanks for ideas - I have tried to answer your queries above, but have also done a more thorough count for the years I have transcribed.  1885 looks unusual, but an unlikely scenario is that from 1876-1884 there were noticeably fewer marriages in Sept/Oct/Nov until 1885 made up the shortfall.  Seems unlikely to me, but there may have been regular visits from Ireland for work, and maybe the clerics noticed that some couples were unofficial ?

Year      total    Sep+Oct+Nov
1872       34          9
1873       35         10
1874       33         11
1875       34         12
1876       32           3
1877       24           3
1878       30           7
1879       22           2
1880       19           1
1881       25           6
1882       29           4
1883       29           8
1884       24           3
1885       41          26 !!
Tarr, Tydeman, Liversidge, Bartlett, Young

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Was there a purge ?
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 03 November 20 18:12 GMT (UK) »
The new houses idea by mazi has merit since many of the couples lived in 2 streets. Something seems to have happened in 1885.
Cowban

Offline Andrew Tarr

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Re: Was there a purge ?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 03 November 20 18:38 GMT (UK) »
I'm afraid the new houses idea doesn't wash either, as the busy streets in 1885 are on the 1851 map of Liverpool, which shows the warren of poky little 'courts' we know of.  It's the area between Scotland Road and the end of the Leeds and Liverpool canal.
Tarr, Tydeman, Liversidge, Bartlett, Young

Offline PaulineJ

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Re: Was there a purge ?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 03 November 20 19:30 GMT (UK) »
If you are doing the transcribing, presumably you can tell if there was a change of incumbent?

Pauline
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Was there a purge ?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 03 November 20 20:45 GMT (UK) »
Is there a history of the parish?
Cowban