Author Topic: Unknown whereabouts/death  (Read 4555 times)

Offline xs

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: One or both?
« Reply #45 on: Friday 04 December 20 15:30 GMT (UK) »
These are the docs I have:
Cockermouth, Maryport
11th Jan 1869 2 Bells PLace, Nelson Street, Maryport
John Postlethwaite Male 57 years Formerley Warder in a prison Heart Disease No medical attendant
Helen Dempster Present at the Death 2 Bells Place Nelson Street Maryport
Maryport Advertiser 22 Jan 1869
Deaths
In Nelson Lane, on the 12th instant John  Postlethwaite, Shoemaker, aged 57 years

Offline xs

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: One or both?
« Reply #46 on: Friday 04 December 20 15:31 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Jen

Offline xs

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: One or both?
« Reply #47 on: Friday 04 December 20 15:34 GMT (UK) »
Hello Heywood
Peterborough, Crowland
26th Feb 1866 Elizabeth Clara  Father: John Postlethwaite  Mother: Elizabeth Postlethwaite formerly Page   Father's occupation:  Shoemaker (Master)

Offline JenB

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,912
    • View Profile
Re: One or both?
« Reply #48 on: Friday 04 December 20 15:37 GMT (UK) »
Well, there's no doubt that going by the death certificate you have found 'your' John Postlethwaite  :D

On the other thread we looked to see if there was any record of him being a shoemaker, but nothing was found. You made no mention of it there?
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline xs

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: One or both?
« Reply #49 on: Friday 04 December 20 15:39 GMT (UK) »
I didn't find that out until today.  Has thrown everything into confusion! :o

Offline xs

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: One or both?
« Reply #50 on: Friday 04 December 20 15:44 GMT (UK) »
I've just read through the thread and you mentioned the newspaper report but I didn't have the death certificate at the time.  I'm sure they're the same person, don't you think?

Offline Maiden Stone

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,226
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: One or both?
« Reply #51 on: Friday 04 December 20 20:38 GMT (UK) »
If someone in the 19th century had 2 occupations would it be possible for both (separately) to be written on documents.   The death certificate of John Postlethwaite records his occupation as Prison Officer which coincides with Census records etc  However, in a newspaper article his death shows his occupation as a shoemaker.  The birth of his daughter also shows him as being a master shoemaker.  I'm sure they are both the same person as everything else checks out.  Perhaps this was the norm?Any suggestions?

If he was really a master shoemaker and hadn't just exaggerated his occupation, he would have been apprenticed to a master shoemaker then worked as a journeyman shoemaker (i.e. for wage) for a while. If he wanted to progress to become a master shoemaker he would have to perfect his craft and produce a masterpiece for approval by members of the local shoemakers' (cordwainers') guild. Then he was entitled to call himself a master shoemaker, set up in business on his own or with partners if he wished, and train apprentices. He would also need to be literate and numerate in order to make and keep records. This would take, I guess, a minimum of 10 years. On the other hand, he might simply have learned how to make shoes, acquired funds to set himself up in a workshop and called himself a master shoemaker. Shoemaking was becoming mechanised in mid 19thC. England and changing from small and medium-sized workshops to factories. It's possible that John Posselthwaite's shoemaking prospects took a downturn as a result and he sought other employment. Shoemakers were not generally rich. Another possibility is that he had an industrial disease and had to give up shoemaking.
My shoemaker ancestor didn't progress beyond a journeyman shoemaker in mid 19thC. Preston, Lancashire. He was an active trades-unionist. A workmate, born in Westmorland, refused to join a strike; this led to a violent confrontation which resulted in a court case and prison sentences.
My ancestor's occupation on wedding and baptism registrations was cordwainer, i.e. he made quality shoes from high quality leather, made for people of quality.
There may have been different informants for the death registration and the newspaper notice. Was Helen Dempster a relative? Had she known John long? Dates of death are different. Information in the newspaper may have been sent by a relative who had known John for decades and who had more time to consider his life. I've written 2 newspaper obits; I included a previous profession in one. If a person had studied and trained for years for a profession it deserved mentioning in their death notice, even if decades had passed since they practised that occupation.           
Cowban

Offline xs

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Unknown whereabouts/death
« Reply #52 on: Saturday 05 December 20 16:09 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for this information.  Very interesting.    I'm still thinking that the 2 John's are the same person. ( a day out on death report)   Just need help to find more evidence, if possible. 
Helen Dempster:  The only person I can find who may be tie in with the death of John is Helen wife of William.  Their first 3 children have all been born in Maryport, Cumberland.  1862, 1865 and 1867
Unfortunately, the family moved to Birkenhead in between 1861-1871 Censuses, (their 4th child was born in Birkenhead 1871) so I can't check the street address.  However, it would make them living there in 1869.  A too tenuous link?

Offline xs

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Unknown whereabouts/death
« Reply #53 on: Tuesday 08 December 20 15:43 GMT (UK) »
I've now moved on to the son of John Postlethwaite.  Edwin John Postlethwaite.  He was born in1851 in Clerkenwell, London.  Parents John and Mary Ann.  In 1861 he is living with his father and Elizabeth (Page).  Records show he was in the Royal Navy but unfortunately deserted in 1872.  I cannot find his whereabouts after this date.  Help would be appreciated.