Author Topic: Church income from marriages/baptisms  (Read 937 times)

Offline DevonPaddyB

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Church income from marriages/baptisms
« on: Tuesday 22 December 20 16:58 GMT (UK) »
Looking at RC records from Galway around 1840 I noticed that there were entries at the end of each record showing what looked like payments in £sd. For my good folks the entry was 0.0 some of the entries were for 3.0.0 or 5.0.0 which, if it was a payment, seems a huge amount for that time. Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct, and if so does an entry on 0.0 indicate inability to give anything ( otherwise known as extreme poverty)?

I also noticed that while there were lots of baptisms the number of marriage records seemed very small by comparison. Any thoughts on why this should be?
Ireland: Quirk(e), Flood, Quin, Toole,
Byrne, Brennan, Walsh
England: Andrews, Powell, Freeman, Yarnold, Mason,
Wainwright, Biddlestone, Sanders, Perrin

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Church income from marriages/baptisms
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 22 December 20 20:10 GMT (UK) »
There's an article on Ireland Reaching Out website which mentions amounts given at baptisms. It's in "News" section. https://irelandxo.com
Typical amounts were in shillings not pounds except for families who were comfortably off.
Which parish?
Baptism registers for any parish in all countries in 19th century have far more entries than marriage registers. 1 wedding might result in baptisms in double figures if both spouses married young and survived long enough. A pair of my ancestors married in Mayo in 1840 and produced children for over 2 decades. I don't know how many as only 1 baptism exists. At least 5 children survived to adults, 4 of them born after 1850; I assume some of the older children didn't make it. A typical Irish couple in 1840 married young, bride might have been in her late teens, bridegroom early 20's. Average marriage ages of both sexes was later post-Famine and the corresponding span of reproductive years was less.
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Church income from marriages/baptisms
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 22 December 20 22:09 GMT (UK) »
There's an article on Ireland Reaching Out website which mentions amounts given at baptisms. It's in "News" section. https://irelandxo.com
Typical amounts were in shillings not pounds except for families who were comfortably off.

Title of article is "Irish Naming and Baptism Traditions". It's currently on page 7 in the "News" section.
https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/news/irelandxo-insight-naming-and-baptism-traditions

To summarise relevant bits in answer to some of your questions:
Before the Great Famine:
A typical bride was in her teens. She might have 14+ pregnancies. Baptism window was 28 years. Babies might arrive annually during first 5 years of the marriage. Gaps between births would increase in later years of a marriage.
After the Great Famine:
Typical bride was aged around 20. Baptism window 25 years. Births might be around 2 years apart with longer gaps later in marriage. 
"The stipend":
2/6 (2 shillings and sixpence or half-a-crown) was typical for a small farmer in West of Ireland. A wealthier man might give £1.10 ( £1 and 10 shillings) in a good year. A stipend 0/0 = poor.
(It doesn't say when.)

I looked at my families' parishes. Ancestors were small farmers. Stipends weren't noted in one parish baptism register or the column on page-edge  has worn away. Most people paid 3 shillings in the other parish in 1850's & 1860's. (Pages for 1840's are tatty and not easy to read.) A few paid 2/6. Some people in town (Castlebar), perhaps shopkeepers, business owners, gave amounts between 5 and 10 shillings. Some salaried fathers, e.g. army sergeant, hospital sergeant (?), superintendent (?) gave 5 to 10 shillings. There were occasional £1 donations. 2 solicitors, one described as "Crown solicitor" each paid £2. The archdeacon baptised babies of some better-off people. No stipend for most baptisms noted "illegitimate". I noticed 2 sets of twins, 3/0 for each pair. (Baptism BOGOF?)   :)
At those rates my ancestor got his half-dozen children done for less than £1 in total.
Cowban

Offline conahy calling

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Re: Church income from marriages/baptisms
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 23 December 20 11:13 GMT (UK) »
These are a few reasons why baptisms are more numerous than marriages.
       
Death before marriageable age.  Infant and child mortality would have been high at that time.

Not everyone got married.

Emigration. Teenagers often emigrated to join relatives, then later married in their new location.


Offline DevonPaddyB

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Re: Church income from marriages/baptisms
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 23 December 20 13:12 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks for the replies and the research sources that went into them. Much appreciated. I was struck momentarily by the thought that when I started  work in the 60's my weekly wage was less than some of the amounts provided for a church service more than a century before! Apparently the £3 to £5 of the 1840's is now valued at £300 to £500, which still seems rather high. Oh well, thanks again.
Ireland: Quirk(e), Flood, Quin, Toole,
Byrne, Brennan, Walsh
England: Andrews, Powell, Freeman, Yarnold, Mason,
Wainwright, Biddlestone, Sanders, Perrin

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Church income from marriages/baptisms
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 23 December 20 18:03 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks for the replies and the research sources that went into them. Much appreciated. I was struck momentarily by the thought that when I started  work in the 60's my weekly wage was less than some of the amounts provided for a church service more than a century before! Apparently the £3 to £5 of the 1840's is now valued at £300 to £500, which still seems rather high. Oh well, thanks again.

Are you sure they were £3 and £5? Were there many with those amounts?  If you name parish and give years we can look for ourselves and form opinions. People who could afford £5 were very well-off.
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Church income from marriages/baptisms
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 23 December 20 18:43 GMT (UK) »
Reply #3 conahycalling.  All those things happened in my Mayo families. Only 1 child in each family married in Mayo. It works out at less than 20% of children born to those families. Some went to England or America and married there. A brother and 2 sisters who remained on a farm never married. Both their parents lived to their 80's, their children were then middle-aged.
Farmer's sons who remained in Ireland tended to marry later after the famine. Some were middle-aged. 
Cowban

Offline DevonPaddyB

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Re: Church income from marriages/baptisms
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 24 December 20 16:53 GMT (UK) »
I was looking at Parish Registers for St Nicholas North and East, Galway for 1845 and earlier.
 I only noticed the money columns when I found an ancestor record and realised they were listed as 0.0. The impression I had from the Baptism registers was that the modal payment was about 2/6d with variations between 0/0d and £1/0/0d.
When I looked at the Marriage registers the modal payment seemed to be around £1 to £1/10/0d.
There were a very few listed at 0/0d and a sprinkling of £3/£5/£6 and even the odd £10.

I would guess that the average rural wage at that time would be around £15-£20 per annum, so even £1 might have seemed a huge amount.

The registers are freely available at "registers.nli.ie" so by all means form your own opinion.
Ireland: Quirk(e), Flood, Quin, Toole,
Byrne, Brennan, Walsh
England: Andrews, Powell, Freeman, Yarnold, Mason,
Wainwright, Biddlestone, Sanders, Perrin

Offline conahy calling

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Re: Church income from marriages/baptisms
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 24 December 20 17:42 GMT (UK) »