Author Topic: David Thomas 1864- Brick Wall, help needed  (Read 285 times)

Offline Welshie55

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David Thomas 1864- Brick Wall, help needed
« on: Thursday 31 December 20 19:20 GMT (UK) »
Hi everyone, I'm new to this and am here as I have hit a brick wall.
It's in regards to David Thomas, my 2nd great-grandfather. He was born 21st January 1864 (only know as I found a scrap of paper among documents from old family home in Dryslwyn.)
Paper says he was born in Tynewydd Llandeilofawr. His marriage cert to my 2nd great grandmother in Nov 1886 Llanarthney, states his father's name as William Thomas occupation Horsebreaker.
The only census I can find them on (if it is them) is in 1871 in Tynewydd Tavern and other than that....zilch!
I can only find 2 births for him, mother Evans or Williams, but neither match the wife in the 1871 census, Mary (who looks like she had a daughter Margaret Davies, before meeting William?
David unfortunately dies at the age of 25 in Mynyddislwyn and is buried in Llangathern church, which I have visited, living not far from there, and it's where most of my ancestors are buried.
The other clue I have, is an old letter which was found in the same box, from a William J Thomas (born 1862 in Llandeilofawr) who wrote to my 2nd Great gran Rachel Lewis-Thomas in Oct 1889 after the death of David, he mentions his nephew William Lewis Thomas who is my great grandfather. Weirdly, the letter comes from c/o Citizens Transfer Co Los Angeles California and he also refers to another brother Thomas, now in Nebraska.
I thought all along that David was an only child, being the result of a fling, but I was wrong.
I can't see any other Tynewydd in Llandeilofawr apart from in Llangathen, and they are not named on the cenuses there. 
It's a mystery and I'm hoping that you kind, skilled, people out there, could shed some light on this.
Any other info needed, please ask. Thank you/diolch.

Offline MonicaL

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Re: David Thomas 1864- Brick Wall, help needed
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 31 December 20 22:35 GMT (UK) »
Hi Welshie55

Welcome to RootsChat  :)

There is a family tree on A/try for a Thomas John Thomas, born 21 Jan 1866 in Llandilofawr, Wales. He died 3 Nov 1957 in Norfolk, Madison, Nebraska.

He married a Sarah Davis on 25 Feb 1891 in Nebraska and raised his family there. His marriage reg from the Nebraska, U.S., Select County Marriage Records, 1855-1908 gives the following details:

T J Thomas
Age 25
Birth Place Wales
Marriage 25 Feb 1891 Nebraska, USA
Father Wm Thomas/ Mother Ann Thomas
Spouse Sarah Davis

Burial details here www.findagrave.com/memorial/65569347/thomas-thomas

Have a look on Family Search for further details on him such as the US censuses:

1900 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M31W-4FW
1910 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MLHH-S87
1920 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MC2Q-1DV

His parents are given as a William Thomas and Ann Williams.

Possible birth for him:

THOMAS, THOMAS        
Mother's maiden name WILLIAMS     
GRO Reference: 1866  M Quarter in LLANELLY  Volume 11A  Page 661

This tree has the following details on his parents:

William Thomas
Birth 1833 Llandeilo fawr, Llanfihangel Aberbythych, Carmarthenshire
Death 28 Oct 1872 Tynewydd Tavern, Llandilofawr

Ann Williams
Birth 1828 Llangadock, Carmarthenshire
Death 7 May 1868 Tynewydd Tavern, Llandilofawr

These early deaths might explain why it has been a problem finding the family together in censuses?

For Thomas Thomas, there are these possible Welsh census entries:

1871 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V55M-DN2
1881 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2W9-9BKQ

There is no US 1890 census as this was destroyed in a fire. You then have possible entries for him and family from 1900.

This is the tree I was looking at www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/120263652/person/182123755203/facts  It is a pain, but you need a subs to view it which I do not know if you have. I have tried to include some original sources for some of the info.

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online osprey

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Re: David Thomas 1864- Brick Wall, help needed
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 31 December 20 22:39 GMT (UK) »
Welcome to Rootschat!

Mary is William's wife on the 1871 but that doesn't mean she is David's mother. This 1861 census looks like it could be the same William at the same inn

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7CF-L8P

possible marriage 22 Sept 1868 in parish church of Llandilofawr
William Thomas full age widower Inn keeper Ty newydd father John Thomas farmer
Mary James full age spinster Tregib House father Thomas James carpenter
both mark. Witnesses Frances Evans & Mary Evans both sign.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q64/
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb


Offline MonicaL

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Re: David Thomas 1864- Brick Wall, help needed
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 31 December 20 22:43 GMT (UK) »
Osprey, that fits well with the possible death year for Ann Williams of 1868, 4 months before William looks to have remarried.

Monica
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Re: David Thomas 1864- Brick Wall, help needed
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 31 December 20 22:47 GMT (UK) »
this might be the burials in Llandilofawr
11 May 1868 Anne Thomas 34 Ty gwyn public
31 Oct 1872 William Thomas 39 Ty Newydd nr. Llandeilo
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline MonicaL

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Re: David Thomas 1864- Brick Wall, help needed
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 31 December 20 22:54 GMT (UK) »
That does look likely for them, Osprey  :)

Regarding the other brother, William J Thomas, his details on the family tree showing as:

William J Thomas
18611926
Birth 2 Oct 1861 Llandeilo Fawr, Carmarthenshire
Death 29 June 1926 Los Angeles, California, USA

If birth details are correct, maybe this registration:

THOMAS, WILLIAM        
Mother's maiden name WILLIAMS     
GRO Reference: 1861  D Quarter in LLANDILOFAWR  Volume 11A  Page 560

He married in Los Angeles on 15 Aug 1891 to a Mina Varian www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:41C9-NYW2

Some census details for him:

1900 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M9PV-SF5
1910 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MVLS-JPD
1920 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MHQG-3PS

The J in William's name looks to be for Jennings. He shows as William Jennings Thomas on his son's death reg here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP7N-NY3D

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MonicaL

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Re: David Thomas 1864- Brick Wall, help needed
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 31 December 20 23:04 GMT (UK) »
Osprey, from your 1861 entry for the family, the children seem to be:

Mary: b. 7 Feb 1857 Llandeilo Fawr. Died Nov 1941 Taibach, Port Talbot, Glamorgan. Married a Lewis Rees
Ann b. 1860
William J b. 1861 as above
David b. 1864, your line, Welshie
Thomas b. 1866 as above

The 1871 census entry you have just to complete the censuses www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V55M-FLB

David's last census in 1881 before his death? www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2W9-GPK9

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Re: David Thomas 1864- Brick Wall, help needed
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 31 December 20 23:18 GMT (UK) »
think we may have made a few cracks in the wall now, MonicaL!

Possible for William in 1851?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGZ3-8XY


I can see a couple a parish marriages for William Thomas & Anne Williams, one in Llandeilofawr and the other in Cwmamman but neither seems a good fit.
The one in Llandeilofawr the father is John, a farmer but the William is 28, so too old, a mason, living in Aberdare, Glam and signs his name.
The one in Cwmamman in 1858, William is a farmer, 23, abode Glannant, father John a farmer. Anne is 21, abode Bailiglas.
There's one in Dafen in 1860 but William's father is George on that one.

Not sure where Margaret Davies comes from either.

 :-\
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

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Re: David Thomas 1864- Brick Wall, help needed
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 31 December 20 23:35 GMT (UK) »
ok, think that is the correct family in 1851. Still at the same farm in 1871 and grandson son Thomas aged 5 is with them

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V55M-DN2
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb