Grandfather Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders/ MGC was POW ?April-Dec 1918

[M.H>]

Useful cross post Jim!  You have provided the key to Festubert.#

War diary for 1 Battalion is here:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351882-

M Hepburn - you can download the diary free at the moment, you just have to register.  There are very detailed accounts of the actions of early April.

MaxD

Max and Jim, what a team you make - thanks.
I have had a look at the MGC diary entries - quite difficult to read.
I took note of 31/100; dated 7th April. Possibly a few days before his capture.
Seems to be about mundane travel orders - march to the railway station from Turco (?) camp at 4.30 am to arrive at 8am, train leaving at 9am. The mess cart left the camp at 3.30am.
A long march on a quite empty stomach ?

Nothing much after that to indicate the awful events. A bit of movement relieving gun positions ?
I could probably do with some help in translation, even though it is in English.

[M.H>]

7/A & SH were at St. Julien Ypres Salient 1/5/15.
They were heavily involved in the fighting & had been from
the previous month.
It's worth noting that it was here that the Germans first used gas
mainly against the Canadians who were involved also.
The A & SH diary makes mention of it.
Your man was injured when the support lines & Btn. H.Q. were shelled.

This is most interesting. I haven't accessed the A&SH diaries as yet - do you have a direct link to that particular entry ?

About the Germans use of gas: I was told that my other grandfather had suffered during a mustard gas attack. Have no idea where or when - I will start another thread about him.

As to the injury - that's curious. Where did you find this ? My Aunt only told me yesterday that he had an ear injury. He apparently had to caution his hairdresser/barber not to go near.

Thanks so much for all of this. The time, energy and enthusiasm very much appreciated

[M.H>]

...His medal award roll entries (on Ancestry) show he went to France with 7 A&SH on 15 Dec 1914.  His service record does not appear to have survived so when he transferred to the MGC is not known. The battalion given as a POW was B Battalion MGC which had a complicated genesis http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/the-companies-and-battalions-of-the-machine-gun-corps/.  It is perhaps possible that there may have been a linkage between 7 A&SH and one of the companies that formed the battalion in 1918 but that needs more work...

MaxD

The longlongtrail is well named.
The link led to a long,long list.
However, I think it is the first 3 entries that are relevant, or maybe not ?!

1st MG Company   Formed in 1st Division, 26 January 1916. Moved into No 1 Bn, MGC 28 February 1918.
2nd MG Company   Formed in 1st Division, 26 January 1916. Moved into No 1 Bn, MGC 28 February 1918.
3rd MG Company   Formed in 1st Division, 26 January 1916. Moved into No 1 Bn, MGC 28 February 1918.

I remain confused.
I thought this gave me the answer as to when he was transferred to MGC B as being February 1918 but... 

[jim1]

The date he transferred to the MGC is on his service record.
diary entry 22/4/18:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q7r/
It says:
Heavy hostile bombardment from 4 to 6 am. E (enemy) Infantry got round A Keep (trench system)
X.29.d (map ref.) & bombed their way through & 2 of our MG's & teams were either put out of
action or captured
The C.O's summing up on p.46:
+ service record.

[M.H>]

Thank you, Jim, so much for this information.
It shows the importance of getting the date right.
Reading pages 45-47 in TNA diary had me in tears.
The 18th April 2018.
Will write more later...

[MaxD]

Worth picking up loose ends.

War diaries are also to be found on Ancestry as you have a sub now.  The 7 A&SH diary covering May 1915 which Jim refers to can be found at  https://www.rootschat.com/links/01q7t/.

The service record that again Jim points to (I was wrong initially to say his record had not survived – sorry) is at the link Jim gave https://www.rootschat.com/links/01q7r/

I hadn’t seen his 1916 date of transfer to MGC at the stage I referred you to longlongtrail for the genesis of 1 Battalion MGC.  His record is not clear as to which company (ies) he served in after transfer although a barely readable sheet suggests he was in 2 Company which became 1 Battalion in Feb 1918.  Dates are not really discernable.

On the POW list that you have seen he comes up listed at number 243.  At the top of the listing in column 6 you will see in pencil “Dulmen” and if you scroll back to the beginning of the list you will see the full heading of the list which has the dates and Dulmen (cheat by entering 39567 as the PA number which will take you to the top of the list).

Do use a different thread when you are ready to look at the other relative.

MaxD

[MaxD]

Another loose end - you asked about his choice of regiment.

7 A&SH was a Territorial Force unit based in Stirling with sub units in  Stirling, Stenhousemuir,  Falkirk, Lennoxtown, Alloa,  Alva and Kinross. 

The battalion went to France in December 1914.  His medal card:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4923636 shows he was with them when they went .   His service record shows he joined at Kelty on 30 March 1914 signing up for a 4 year engagement, obviously the war then overtook that commitment.

MaxD

[M.H>]

Thanks so much Jim and Max for your incredible help answering my questions and giving valuable information about the background of regiments. Also providing links to their War Diaries.
So far have only accessed those of MGC at TNA. Looking forward to reading more at Ancestry.
I have taken note of all useful resources and created a basic time line.

So, briefly Grandfather enlisted at Kelty, Fife, Scotland.
30.3.14, embodied with A&SH 5.8.14.
15.12.14 went to France
1.5.15  St. Julien Ypres Salient. Sustained injury during shelling of support lines at Battalion HQ.
25.7.16  Transferred to MGC 2 Company, changed to 1 Battalion Feb 18.
April 18  Engaged in Battle of the Lys, Festubert.
? Dates listed as Missing, Captured as POW, taken to Lille.
Note in diary entry 22.4.18. [Not entered into official Forces War Record until19.6.18.]
Details of intense enemy bombardment on 18.4.18.
As POW ? change of rank from Private to Corporal, in MGC B corps.
31.10.18 ? transfer from Lille to Dulmen POW Camp.
11.12.18 Official record listed as Released POW from Germany, arriving in England.

The facts are one thing, the story another.
The MGC War Diary entry for the horrendous enemy bombardment on 18th April, 1918 moved me like nothing else has.
And that was just one day in 4 years.
So many killed, captured and survived. Each number is a person with family and friends.
My remaining Aunts in their 80's and 90's didn't know anything much about their Dad's experience. My late Dad and Uncles would have loved this.
On their behalf and mine, I would like to thank you very much for everything you have shared.

This is only the beginning.
Next up, my other grandfather...George Donald...

[M.H>]

7/A & SH were at St. Julien Ypres Salient 1/5/15.
They were heavily involved in the fighting & had been from
the previous month.
It's worth noting that it was here that the Germans first used gas
mainly against the Canadians who were involved also.
The A & SH diary makes mention of it.
Your man was injured when the support lines & Btn. H.Q. were shelled.

Always something to add...

My previous reply to this included mention of an ear injury as told by an Aunt.
However, talking to another Aunt today it seems that he sustained more serious injuries.
Apparently Grandad Rodger was shot near lower spine and hand.
This required ( like my other Grandad ) a trip back to the UK to receive hospital care in England.

I have no evidence as yet to support this. I assume it will be in his records somewhere.
Another trail to follow...