John Williams Receiver of Flint assumed the surname Matthew circa 1450

[Llanfihangel]

Hi,

I have been researching a Williams family claiming a peculiar Coat of Arms resembling that of Sir David Mathew....

Sir David Mathew 1400–1484; born Dafydd ap Mathew, was a Welsh Knight. He was Lord of Llandaff and Seneschal of Llandaff Cathedral, and one of the ten Great Barons of Glamorgan, a Marcher Lord. It was said he was one of the most distinguished men of his age and a zealous supporter of the Yorkist cause. Wikipedia

The Williams family in question emigrated to America around 1600, and they modified the Coat of  by omitting the helmet signifying nobility (an American custom), but retaining the distinctive crest of a Moorcock.

There are a couple of sources stating that this Williams family originated in Flint, not long after the invasion of Williams the Conqueror... Versions of the following account crop up in several places:


"The first to adopt the name of Williams as a surname was Roger Williams, of Llangibby Castle and the Priory at Uske, county Monmouth. England. He was said to be a direct descendant of Brychan Bricheininish, prince and lord of Brecknock, who lived about the year 490. The pedigree also shows the name of Roger Williams, of Flint, Wales, from whom descended John Williams, receiver of Flintshire in the reign of Edward IV., which extended from the year 1461 to 1483, who married for his first wife the daughter and heir of Edward Matthews, of Yorkshire. Their son George assumed the name of Matthew,
which has continued to be a family name ever since. The Welsh coat-of-arms has the inscription: "He beareth sable," showing royalty, and is as follows: Arms, lion rampant argent, armed and langued, gules. Crest: A moor cock or partridge. Motto: Cognosce occasionew ("Watches his opportunity"). The
Welsh motto: "Y fyno Dwy Y. fidd" ("What God willeth will be.").

An ancestral chart of Tobias Matthews of Bristol seems to be the genesis of the Williams/Mathews surname transmogrification.
 
Unfortunately, the Matthews lineage does not correspond with accepted records, and I have found no trace of any of the names recorded in the Williams ancestry all the way back to Roger Williams of Flint.

I would be very grateful to have any verification of the John Williams receiver of Flint ancestry account. The origin seems to have been a mysterious document loaned to Thoresby, a famous genealogist in the 1700s, and copied elsewhere.

My thanks to Rootschat, and this Forum, and my best wishes to all of you...

Please take care!

Llanfi 

[mckha489]

Was it Mr Le Neve who had the parchment Roll?  I am having trouble figuring out that long sentence!

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=gulWAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA253&lpg=PA253&dq=john+williams+receiver+of+flint&source=bl&ots=naxw9eMRuk&sig=ACfU3U3n6b71QzDss6Vs7kYy7dlakViP1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_hsL60LvuAhWZb30KHYAND1QQ6AEwDnoECBQQAQ#v=onepage&q=john%20williams%20receiver%20of%20flint&f=true

[Llanfihangel]

Hello MCKHO489

Thanks for the reply!

It was Thoresby who has the manuscript

Please see attached, also an image of the Williams Coat of Arms in America

Cheers,

Llanfi

[Llanfihangel]

Hello MCKHO489

The Thoresby document involved two families:

1. Tobias Matthew, details of which came from a "curious Parchment Roll" lent to him by a descendent of Tobias Matthew

2. Judge Rokeby two documents "he had perusal of" in the possession of Mr Le Leve

It seems that there were similarilties between the Matthews coat of arms and Judge Rokeby's although the moorcock crest isn't mentioned here.

However, the Williams Coat of arms had the Lion Rampant "quartered with the arms of the Bawds and Marradiffs"

Note that the families of Richard Bawde and Edmund Maradiffe  are ancestors by marriage of the Williams family.

The moorcock crest on Sir David Mathew's tomb in Llandaff cathedral is the subject of much discussion!

Cheers

Llanfi

[mckha489]

Yes I know it was Thoresby who was loaned the “parchment roll” but doesn’t that paragraph say it was loaned to him by Mr Le Neve?  Or did Mr Le Neve only have the visitation stuff relating to the Judge?

If the former, if you could figure out who Mr Le Neve was and what might have happened to his library perhaps it might be possible to find the parchment roll buried in a box somewhere.

I realise this is wild thinking and probably already been done, but thought I should say just incase.

(I don’t understand heraldry  )