Author Topic: Dispensation at marriage - what does it mean?  (Read 1142 times)

Offline myluck!

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Dispensation at marriage - what does it mean?
« on: Monday 08 February 21 11:42 GMT (UK) »
I would appreciate a translation or meaning for the note to this 1892 marriage please
Kearney & Bourke/ Johns & Fox/ Mannion & Finan/ Donohoe & Curley
Byrne [Carthy], Keeffe/ Germaine, Butler/ McDermott, Giblin/ Lally, Dolan
Toole, Doran; Dowling, Grogan/ Reilly, Burke; Warren, Kidd [Lawless]/ Smith, Scally; Mangan, Rodgers/ Fahy, Calday; Staunton, Miller
Further generations:
Brophy Coleman Eathorn(e) Fahy Fitzpatrick Geraghty Haverty Keane Keogh Nowlan Rowe Walder

Online scotmum

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Re: Dispensation at marriage - what does it mean?
« Reply #1 on: Monday 08 February 21 12:10 GMT (UK) »
In simple terms:

Quote
.    Marriage dispensations were necessary when the two people marrying were related, consanguinati, and the relationship was given in terms of degrees, with siblings first degree, first cousins second degree, and second cousins third degree. 

This straightforward  example might help you understand:.

https://www.cotyroneireland.com/marriages/clarkejohnmary.html
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Dispensation at marriage - what does it mean?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 08 February 21 12:12 GMT (UK) »
3rd degree consanguinity. Dispensation from vicar-general.
It means the couple were related to the 3rd degree of consanguinity (shared bloodline). They would have been cousins of some kind. A vicar general was the person in a diocese from whom a parish priest would obtain a dispensation if the priest didn't have authority himself to issue a dispensation.
A vicar general was a deputy to a bishop. He dealt with administrative matters.
A cousin of one of my GGFs in England was a vicar general in late 19th century. He was also in charge of organising building churches in his diocese and sat on committees and stood in for the bishop at events if his boss couldn't be present.
Cowban

Offline myluck!

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Re: Dispensation at marriage - what does it mean?
« Reply #3 on: Monday 08 February 21 12:15 GMT (UK) »
Thank you both I think from the link they were 2nd cousins
More to ponder on!!

Kearney & Bourke/ Johns & Fox/ Mannion & Finan/ Donohoe & Curley
Byrne [Carthy], Keeffe/ Germaine, Butler/ McDermott, Giblin/ Lally, Dolan
Toole, Doran; Dowling, Grogan/ Reilly, Burke; Warren, Kidd [Lawless]/ Smith, Scally; Mangan, Rodgers/ Fahy, Calday; Staunton, Miller
Further generations:
Brophy Coleman Eathorn(e) Fahy Fitzpatrick Geraghty Haverty Keane Keogh Nowlan Rowe Walder


Offline dathai

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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Dispensation at marriage - what does it mean?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 08 February 21 13:41 GMT (UK) »
Reply #3. I agree they were likely 2nd cousins. There were usually 2 figures, one for each spouse. As there is only 1 figure, I'd assume that groom and bride were the same degree of separation from their common ancestor. 
Reply #4. That chart is degrees of blood relationships not degrees of consanguinity for R.C. marriages.
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Offline myluck!

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Re: Dispensation at marriage - what does it mean?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 08 February 21 13:49 GMT (UK) »
Thank you all

My mother used to love to misquote (with much laughter) the rule
"A man can't marry his wife's dead sister"
which of course should be "dead wife's sister"
I see in the first link that the Pope had to give dispensation!
I find strange as they weren't blood relatives
Kearney & Bourke/ Johns & Fox/ Mannion & Finan/ Donohoe & Curley
Byrne [Carthy], Keeffe/ Germaine, Butler/ McDermott, Giblin/ Lally, Dolan
Toole, Doran; Dowling, Grogan/ Reilly, Burke; Warren, Kidd [Lawless]/ Smith, Scally; Mangan, Rodgers/ Fahy, Calday; Staunton, Miller
Further generations:
Brophy Coleman Eathorn(e) Fahy Fitzpatrick Geraghty Haverty Keane Keogh Nowlan Rowe Walder

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Dispensation at marriage - what does it mean?
« Reply #7 on: Monday 08 February 21 15:27 GMT (UK) »
Regarding a man marrying a sister of his deceased wife. It wasn't allowed in England until late 19th century. A few well-off widowers went abroad to marry a sister-in-law. Less wealthy widowers arranged a wedding in  a parish where they weren't known, perhaps a large town or city.
 A widow wasn't allowed to marry her deceased husband's brother until 1921.
When a man and woman married they became "one flesh", so in a sense, the wife's sister became the husband's sister too. 
Amendment. Deceased Wife's Sister's Marriage Act 1907. Deceased Brother's Widow's Marriage Bill 1921.
I don't know if the 1921 Act became law before or after Irish independence and if it applied there or not. There used to be different marriage laws in 3 of the 4 countries of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. What was legal in one country might not be legal in another.
The matter of widowers marrying their sisters-in-law was discussed several time in Parliament in 19th century.

Btw, a Catholic vicar-general is similar to an Anglican archdeacon. A vicar general has to hold a doctorate or licentiate in canon law. My ancestor's cousin had the title Doctor. His full title was the Very Reverend Doctor but he preferred Doctor. Although English, he studied for the priesthood at Maynooth. He came top of his class in a couple of subjects one year, so he was "brainy". 
Cowban

Offline myluck!

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Re: Dispensation at marriage - what does it mean?
« Reply #8 on: Monday 08 February 21 15:35 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for that information it is really interesting

My mother got much enjoyment in her misquoting!
It was also a test to see if she was being listened to!!!
Kearney & Bourke/ Johns & Fox/ Mannion & Finan/ Donohoe & Curley
Byrne [Carthy], Keeffe/ Germaine, Butler/ McDermott, Giblin/ Lally, Dolan
Toole, Doran; Dowling, Grogan/ Reilly, Burke; Warren, Kidd [Lawless]/ Smith, Scally; Mangan, Rodgers/ Fahy, Calday; Staunton, Miller
Further generations:
Brophy Coleman Eathorn(e) Fahy Fitzpatrick Geraghty Haverty Keane Keogh Nowlan Rowe Walder