Elizabeth Bottomley MANN arrival in NZ?

[Tgapitbull]

Thanks Lucy2.  Yes turning out to be an interesting family!
I am also looking further into the questions you raise, but have to leave this for a couple of days while I attend to a family matter.
TPB

[Lucy2]

And where were the family en route to ...  or from, when Robert was born at sea ?

Well, (this part of ) mystery solved.   

Had earlier noticed Anthony Mann aged 9, arriving in Australia in 1860 [FindMyPast index, however he was not on corresponding image. ]
Now found via ancestry and Immigration lists to Victoria ... the whole family.  [Also confirms that ("your") Elizabeth was older than her sister Emily. ]

"Queen of India" - from Liverpool, UK, to Melbourne, Vic, AUS - arrival 31 August 1860. [ Actual date seems to have been 28 August - according to newspapers. ]

MANN
--  John - 36 - Labourer
--  Mary - 35 - wife
--  Anthony - 9
--  Elizabeth - 2
--  Emily - 1

   ~  Lu

Added - Note:  Was re-checking passenger manifest and noticed a declaration  from Master of "Queen of India"  attached - dated 31/8/1860.   (Briefly) says  ... 'none of the passengers enumerated in accompanying list, are Immigrants within the meaning of the Act passed by Govt. of Colony of Victoria in 18th year of reign of Queen Victoria  ... an Act which makes provision for certain Immigrants.'    Whatever all that means ??   Maybe all these passengers paid their own way to Victoria    

[Lucy2]

VIC  BMD

This birth ... reg. at "BALL" , Victoria - which I think is abbreviation for "Ballarat".

MANN - Tom *
Birth:  1863
Parents:   Mary (Nee BOTTOMLEY) and John MANN
Reg :   Ball. VIC
----

and, sadly, ... this death reg.   * Added - also at Ball.  (Ballarat)

MANN - Tom
Death :  1866
Father :  John
Mother : Mary

[*  Tom (rather than "Thomas" ... but probably named for his late brother ? ]

       ~  Lu

[Lucy2]

So, Ballarat - gold mining territory ...

By 1860 there probably wasn't a lot of gold left ?      Although records suggest that diggings at Ballarat went on until late 1860's.

*  Appears family weren't part of an official immigration-to-VIC scheme - seemingly paid their own passage ?

*  Son, Robert Parker MANN is born at sea  (somewhere I saw written - "in British waters" ?    At another site, a birth date of "June 1867" - but without a link to a source ).

*   This poor boy dies in ENG in October 1881 - age 14 years - bc 1867.

*   MANN family return to UK from Australia in 1867.

*   MANN family > minus son Anthony > are all on 1871 census at Halifax.


"Your" Elizabeth is turning out to be a well-travelled young lady ... two trips to the lands "Downunder" before she was 16.   

    ~  Lu

[Lucy2]

I've tried all manner of searches for the mysterious "Elizabeth 2".    To date, no luck.   I do feel however that she was the sister of John MANN (b. 1826). 

Hi TPB

The "mysterious Elizabeth Mann (born circa 1828) - to Canterbury 1874 with MANN children. "

Previously I'd said I (really) thought this lady was the unmarried sister of John MANN.
Can now rule her out !!!       Was able to confirm (and largely via a census listing) that this Elizabeth MANN married in 1849 ( to a chap with an unusual name ) Carling SHACKLETON.
On the 1851 ENG census "Lydia MANN - widow - 57" is listed as Carling's mother-in-law".  Also at same address is Lydia's youngest son, Jabez and possibly her daughter Hannah and her family.   [Elizabeth SHACKLETON is with her husband (there are no apparent children) up until her death in 1892. ].

Back to the "drawing board".   

    ~  Lu

Added -  1851 Census for Yorks. - Halifax, Southowram

[Tgapitbull]

Many thanks Lucy2 for all this information.
As you say, Elizabeth was certainly a well travelled young lady!
From the Wellington City Council (WCC) cemetery database I have found the name of the FD and sent them a message to see if they have in their records an indication as to how long she was in NZ at time of her death - awaiting a response.  WCC had no additional information.

While it would be interesting to know who "Elizabeth 2" is and when Anthony Mann arrived in NZ I think that I will have to leave it here as you very kindly have provided the information that I was originally looking for re her arrival date in NZ.

As an aside to your earlier posting, there was a Shackleton family living in Waimate - one of whom was Dr R G Shackleton. This family I understand from my Mother, is related to the explorer Shackleton. 

TPB

[Tgapitbull]

Hi Lucy2,
I have had a relook at the information re "Elizabeth 2".  Although you eventually ruled her out as being the unmarried sister of John Mann as she married Carling Shackleton in 1849, I am coming around to the view that she is the sister of John Mann but used "Mann" instead of "Shackleton" when she came out to NZ.

Could this have something to do with being a "Nominated single woman?"

Also why would she come out with 3 children who were minors, with the parents remaining in England?  Also their Nominator (Anthony) was not much older than his sister Elizabeth.

I am trying to find out when Robert [Parker] Mann returned to England.  Did "Elizabeth 2" return with him?  So far no luck.

TPB

[Lucy2]

Hi TPB

  ... will get back to you later today.   

    ~   Lu

[Lucy2]

I have had a relook at the information re "Elizabeth 2".  Although you eventually ruled her out as being the unmarried sister of John Mann as she married Carling Shackleton in 1849, I am coming around to the view that she is the sister of John Mann but used "Mann" instead of "Shackleton" when she came out to NZ.

Could this have something to do with being a "Nominated single woman?"

Hi TPB

I've also been back over the info previously found for "Elizabeth 2" (Royalty, NOT ... but the one  born c. 1828).     [And have been able to rule out other women of this same name. ]

She is with her husband CS > (and sometimes other of her family members)  > in census returns 1851 to 1891.  There are no apparent children of her union with Carling SHACKLETON.

Of course these census records at ten year intervals don't tell us "everything" ...and she may well  have been the person (as an Aunt) who accompanied the MANN children to NZ.   WHY is the question ... and especially "why" when it comes to the young Robert MANN aged 7 (whose parents were still alive back in  the old country)  ?   I'm sure he wouldn't just have "gone along for the ride".
*  Maybe it was planned that (parents) John and Mary MANN would also come out to New Zealand at a later date ??

"Elizabeth 2" is listed as we know, "a single woman" with the occupation of "cook".  In UK records  she does not have an occupation - (shown as wife of an overseer - working in a mill or factory).
[Carling SHACKLETON's occupation was probably not one that was "needed" in New Zealand at that time ... but that would not preclude his coming to NZ, (in that era), as a colonial-nominated immigrant with his fare paid by somebody already resident in the Colony.   And the same would apply to "Elizabeth 2" (too)  . ]
Added > Seemingly there were "regulations" for "nominated immigrants" - and probably each province had their own - but history tells us that on numerous occasion "rules" were broken (think persons tweaking their ages to gain subsidised passage /  etc. etc. ). <
 :

Unfortunately, if say this "Elizabeth 2" returned to England ... and in the company of a still-young, Robert MANN, before 1878, there are no shipping records/passenger lists covering that time frame.

... some more info to follow ... see next posts >

   ~  Lu