Mary Ann Thomas - 'wrong' father on marriage cert?

[antonymark]

Hi everyone,

I've been chasing this round and round for months now and I'm out of ideas as to what to look at next. Any thoughts or suggestions would be most welcome.

My 2xg grandmother was Mary Ann Thomas who married my 2xg grandfather William Holden at Woolwich on 15th January 1877. They are together on all censuses 1881 - 1911. Mary Ann always gives her birthplace as Ewell, Surrey and ages that suggest a birth between 1854 and 1857. I've seen them on electoral rolls up to William's death in 1930 and Mary Ann's in 1932.

Those census details lead to this birth:
 Sep 1855 Epsom 2a 8 THOMAS, Mary Ann (mmn Kitcherside)

Which points to the marriage on 22nd November 1846 at Ewell of James Thomas, labourer to Caroline Kitcherside. James, Caroline, their Mary Ann and other children have been found in 1861 and 1871.

The fly in the ointment here is that on William and Mary Ann's marriage certificate Mary Ann's father is given as John Thomas, labourer. Not James.

I have tried to establish whether these are two different Mary Anns or whether they are one and the same and the use of John on that certificate is somehow an error. I can find no alternative match for "my" Mary Ann before marriage in 1877 and no match for "other" Mary Ann after appearing on the census in 1871 with her father and siblings at East Street, Epsom. Caroline is boarding at Mill Lane, Ewell and working as a monthly nurse.

I've looked long and hard at the Thomas family of Ewell. James' father is given as John Thomas, labourer on that 1846 marriage. James and Caroline had sons John (born and died 1858) and James John (1861 - 1863). Is this where the 'John' has crept into the picture or am I clutching at straws?

I've now followed all the other Thomas children forward in the hope that they would turn up living with, next door to, married to or otherwise linked to an identifiable person from the Holden side. No such luck. I even looked at some of the grandchildren and great grandchildren of James and Caroline.

Lots of the Holden family work in nursing, hospitals or asylums so I thought I was onto something with youngest son Charles Thomas. He was found working as an attendant and asylum hall porter in 1891 and 1901 at the Brookwood Asylum, Woking and in charge of a private nursing home at Bournemouth in 1911. I have Charles' marriage certificate and his father is given as James. Charles died in 1918 without me finding a connection.

The witnesses to William and Mary Ann's marriage were William's cousin Selina Darby and the mysterious "W. Goater" who I have not been able to identify.

I used a recent free weekend to build a little tree on Ancestry for the Thomas family and "my" Mary Ann and the Holdens are flashing away as hints. Meanwhile on my tree on FindMyPast "other" Mary Ann and the Thomas family of Ewell are showing as hints. Can the Ancestry and FindMyPast systems see something I'm missing or, as I think more likely, have other people connected the two Mary Anns based on census age and birthplace without having sight of the marriage certificate?

Would DNA help with this or is Mary Ann too far back for a link to be made? I've not looked into much detail about DNA and it all looks a bit complicated. Would matching to the quite unusual Kitcherside name clinch it and I could claim James and Caroline as 'mine'?

Thanks for reading to the end and I hope the steps I've taken make sense.

Best regards, Tony.

[Rosinish]

It looks very much like an error, I'm sure many of us have had similar.

I have noticed some of the hints given when I input names have been saved by others i.e. a wrong match from my own research.

Annie

[mckha489]

On a marriage certificate I have the names of the fathers of the parties have been swapped by the person filling in the certificate.   I was lucky as they were distinctive and the witnesses were helpful.

Is that a possibility for yours?

[antonymark]

On a marriage certificate I have the names of the fathers of the parties have been swapped by the person filling in the certificate.   I was lucky as they were distinctive and the witnesses were helpful.

Is that a possibility for yours?

William's father given correctly as George Holden, labourer.

[Girl Guide]

The 1855 birth you have for Mary Ann is the only one that shows up on free bmd between 1850 and 1860.  Epsom covers Ewell so the right registration district.

Perhaps the grandfather's name John was put down by mistake instead of the father James.  Not beyond the bounds of possibility that a mistake was made with the names.

[Josephine]

I've got similar situations with various ancestors, so I know how challenging this can be. Given how thorough you've been, I'm assuming there weren't any wills or obits to provide the proof you need. It certainly couldn't hurt for you to have your DNA tested and see if that yields any clues.

Good luck in your search!

Regards,
Josephine

[antonymark]

It looks very much like an error, I'm sure many of us have had similar.

I have noticed some of the hints given when I input names have been saved by others i.e. a wrong match from my own research.

Annie

My feeling is that it's an error by the person filling in the form. Leaves a niggling doubt though.

I have found others either making up a father's name or giving that of a brother or another relative. This has been when child and parent are parted when young.

James and Caroline's Mary Ann must surely have known her father's name? She was at home aged 15 with James in 1871.

 

[antonymark]

The 1855 birth you have for Mary Ann is the only one that shows up on free bmd between 1850 and 1860.  Epsom covers Ewell so the right registration district.

Perhaps the grandfather's name John was put down by mistake instead of the father James.  Not beyond the bounds of possibility that a mistake was made with the names.

Thanks GG. Looks like I'm at the perhaps/possible end of the possible-likely-definite scale. Just don't feel I've got enough yet to claim James and Caroline as mine or rule them out.

[antonymark]

I've got similar situations with various ancestors, so I know how challenging this can be. Given how thorough you've been, I'm assuming there weren't any wills or obits to provide the proof you need. It certainly couldn't hurt for you to have your DNA tested and see if that yields any clues.

Good luck in your search!

Regards,
Josephine

My lot don't seem to be leaving wills at this time. Nothing to bequeath I suppose.

I've had a few digs in newspapers on FindMyPast but nothing so far.