Author Topic: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry  (Read 6440 times)

Offline dukewm

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #63 on: Monday 24 July 23 14:52 BST (UK) »
Part 2 of the Will of John Downing of Dreenan (3rd part in a series)

"Seventhly I will and bequeath my dear mother to be paid half yearly in two equal payments during her natural life the sum of £10 yearly the same to be paid equally by each fourth part already 
bequeathed with full power for her or her order to distrain and drive for the same half yearly in case of non-payment thereof the first of said payments to become due on the 1st day of May
or 1st day of November after my decease.
Eighthly I will and bequeath to my sister Margaret Downing otherwise O’Neill six pounds sterling yearly and half year during her natural life with full power for her or her order to recover and   
she for the same in like manner as my said mother is hereby enpowered to … for the sum already bequeathed to her and after her death I leave and bequeath the sum of £100 sterling to the children
of my said sister to be paid equally among them at the discretion of my executor after one year after the death of my said sister  . . . "
Ninthly I will and bequeath to John Downing and Francis Downing my two natural sons and their lawful issue equally between them the aforesaid farm at Carrabrook situate in the lands of Dreenan
subject to the yearly rent of £5 sterling to be paid half yearly to the Right Honourable Thomas Conolly or his Agent in part of the … rent of the aforesaid lease of the half town of Dreenan and in case
one of them shall die without issue lawfully begotten said farm of land is to go to the survivor of them and his lawfully issue and in case both shall die without lawful issue said farm of land is to . . .
equally among my said brother and lawful issue I order the sum of £5 to the poor of the Parish of Maghera aforesaid to be paid out of my chattels by my Executors I order all my just debts
and funeral charges to be paid out of my chattels by my Executors and my Legacies also to be paid by my Executors all the residue and remainder of my goods chattels effects wearing apparel
I leave to my said sons John and Francis Downing share and share alike.
I do hereby nominate constitute and appoint William Forrester and Captain James Spotswood Exors of this my last Will and Testament and appoint Anthony Forrester and Mr Samuel Downing
overseers of said will . . .
. . . in case all my brothers shall die without lawful issue then in such case the freehold lands of Dreenan are to go to the above named William Forrester and his heirs."
Executors:  William Forrester, Capt. James Spotswood
Witnesses:  (unkn) Duff, James Alexander, Robert Forrester
In the first Codicil, dated 22 Nov 1794, John revoked and disannuled "that part of said will wherein it is mentioned that Francis Downing is to have an equal share in said farm of Carrobrack 
and I do hereby leave and bequeath the whole of said farm of Carrobrack for my said natural son John Downing issue lawfully begot and leave bequeath to my said natural son Francis Downing £0 1s 1d."
Witness:  Samuel Downing
In a second Codicil, dated 1 Feb 1797, John left "the two daughters of Neil O’Neill £20 my brother George’s daughter £10 my brother William’s daughter £10 and John Lyttle’s three children £21
and my natural son John Downing 20 guineas in addition to the whole of Carrobrack as formerly bequeathed to him.
Lastly I order the house and farm I now live in to be part of my brother James fourth of my freehold except Carrobrack and that my said brother James is to have his division £10 yearly less than 
Mr Dawson Downing Samuel Downing William Forrester John Spotswood shall value it at he never having got any lands from me since his marriage."
Witness:  William Carmichael, my servant

Offline dukewm

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #64 on: Monday 24 July 23 16:50 BST (UK) »
Part 4 in a 4-part series

Now we have established that John Downing of Dreenan, died after 1 Feb 1797 (date of 2nd Codicil), had brothers named George, James, Williaraaram, and Stafford, and a named sister, Margaret, who married a Mr. O'Neill (probably Neil O'Neill).
Although he mentioned a son, Stafford, first, he was awarded just 200 pounds, while his four brothers were to equally inherit the rights to John's "half" of Dreenan, and his "natural" sons, John and Francis, inherit the farm at Carrabrook.
To me, this implies Stafford may have been the son of his wife, Hester, by an earlier marriage, as adoption was basically non-existant.
I might also suggest that the four brothers named by John are the four principle Lessees in the 1798 renewal of "Stafford's Lease", because it's unlikely that there would be another family group matching all four given names in the same small area and time frame. 
HOWEVER, it's possible that those four given names were replicated in the next generation by one of those four brothers.

Let's say George, James, William, and Stafford, the four brothers mentioned in John's 1782 Will, were all born by about 1745.  Remember, George was almost certainly born by 1734.
They would all have been at least 53 years old at the 1798 renewal.  On the other hand, perhaps George (or any other brother) named his own four sons after his own brothers, and they were all born between, say 1760 to 1775.
That next generation would certainly have been old enough to act as principle Lessees and obviously younger farmers at the time.
But if we refer back to the renewals of "Stafford's Lease", we see that the 7th renewal, of 1 Jun 1800, names James, George, Stafford, John and Sarah, indicating that William had passed away, probably as an older man.
And he is replaced by a 'John' Downing and a 'Sarah' Downing.  We know from John's Will that his "beloved" wife was Hester, not Sarah.  But we also know John was still living in Feb 1797, so it's likely he joined his other brothers after William died.

I think it's very reasonable to attach all FIVE of these known Downing brothers to "Stafford's Lease.
My tree does not have wives for any of the five except John. 

As for your unattached Elizabeth Sharon Downing, b. 1798, daughter of George (and Elizabeth), let's speculate further.
You say there were children named:
1. John, bap 21 Oct 1789
2. Jane and John, bap 16 Apr 1791
3. William, bap. 2 Dec 1792, and
4. Stafford, bap. 6 Sep 1794
all baptized at St. Lurach's, Maghera.  St. Lurach's was Church of Ireland place of worship for folks from Dreenan, and Rev'd Alexander Clotworthy Downing was Rector there from 1785 to 1793, so he certainly would have performed the baptisms of all except Stafford.
Yes, it's probable that the eldest John died in infancy and when the twins came along in 1791, they named the boy John.
More noteworthy, the forenames John, William, and Stafford repeat three of the names of the sons of 'John' named in the 1782 Will.
Remembering that George, son of Bernard, was almost certainly alive by 1734, it's reasonable to speculate that he had married and named a son after himself, who could have married an 'Elizabeth', and been the parents of the children baptized in the 1790s, all grandchildren of George the elder.

HOWEVER, that doesn't necessarily place Eliabeth Sharon in that family group.  Nor is it certain that George the younger was the son of George the elder, but perhaps the son of one of the other brothers, John excluded.
It is possible that George the younger, father of the four surviving children baptized at St. Lurach's was one of the Principle Lessees in the 6th Renewal, but I think it's more likely that was George the elder, due to William's subsequent death.
On the other hand, using the same rationale that repetitive names in different family groups in the same small area at the same time, is unlikely.  I think it is highly likely that your Elizabeth Sharon may have been a younger sister to the aforemention siblings baptized at St. Lurach's.
So, to summarize my theory, I DO believe that your Elizabeth Sharon, b. 1798, was the granddaughter of George the elder, eldest son of Bernard of Ballyneas Downing, now Ballynease-Helton.
The fact that Elizabeth, and her husband Robert Henry, named four of their children John, Jane, William, and Stafford, is strong circumstantial evidence of a connection to the St. Lurach's children, her likely siblings.
That's just my take on it.  I would caution against publishing ANYTHING without corroborating verification.

Note: my eBook only covers Downing deeds up to 1825.  The Family Search resource mentioned earlier is a terrific source and probably has more information on deeds afterwards that may help.

Forward Into the Past,
Rick

Offline M_ONeill

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #65 on: Monday 24 July 23 22:27 BST (UK) »
Thanks for writing that up, Rick!

First of all, it's interesting that we have an O'Neill/Downing marriage prior to 1782. If we presume, based on the names of some of John's children that he and Margaret were in the 'Stafford' Downing line, then that is conceivably another origin point for 'Stafford' O'Neills. I've mentioned before how the Ballymacpeake Stafford O'Neills seem slightly more remote from the other 'Stafford' family branches, including my own. I've often wondered if they could have been a slightly more distant branch of cousins from the 'four daughters' Stafford families.

Another small, circumstancial thing I notice here is that the Ballymacpeake Stafford O'Neills had a number of 'Neal O'Neills' born in their line, a first name which is entirely absent in my Rocktown branch.

Secondly, regarding the 'natural' sons of John Downing. I have read before that in these kind of legal contexts the phrase 'natural' when used regarding children often means illegitimate (or at least, born out of wedlock, whether they are accepted by the father or not is another matter). It doesn't seem there's full consensus on this, as others argue it just means 'biological son' with no other implication. I think it could work either way in this case, I just wanted to raise the possibility that things could be flipped, with Stafford being the 'legitimate' son of Hester and John and Francis being illegitimated, but accepted children of John.

As to Stafford only getting 200 pounds while John and Francis get the farm; it could indeed show that John and Francis were the more important children, but I have also seen cases where older, established children (who may already be set up with a situation of their own) get less, while younger children who have yet to 'get on the ladder' so to speak, get more. Again, I think things could go either way with this will, but I think it's something to note.

Another possibility comes down to where the young Stafford was at the time of the will. My 3x great McChrystal grandfather only got a small sum of money on his father's passing despite being the eldest child, while his sister got the family farm, but this was because my 3x great grandfather was away with his own family working in England at the time and. The Griffiths valuation revisions show he took over the farm from his sister a few years later on his return.

I'll leave it there for now, but I hope to write up a little something soon on some parallel research that's been going on into the history of the O'Neills of the area. It might shed some light on some of the kinds of O'Neill families the Downings might have been marrying into.

Offline M_ONeill

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #66 on: Monday 24 July 23 22:34 BST (UK) »
Extra sidenote: If there is indeed another earlier O'Neill/Downing marriage in the Stafford line prior to 1782, then it perhaps provides a slot for one Stafford O'Neill I've never been able to place: Stafford D (possibly Dennison) O'Neill.

He was born around 1774 in Ireland and later emigrated to America. He married an Esther (surname unknown) and lived in New York state, eventually settling in Fallsburg, NY.

I messaged a descendant of his a few years ago, but they sadly had no details on where he came from or his life before moving to America.

Looking at the info you've posted above, Rick, I find myself wondering if he could have been a child of John's sister Margaret? She was clearly married before 1782, so the timescales potentially fit...


Offline dukewm

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #67 on: Tuesday 25 July 23 14:35 BST (UK) »
Follow Up to my 4 part series (Reply Numbers 61-64)

You may have noticed in the 2nd part of the Will of John Downing of Dreenan, that;
1. one of the witnesses was Robert Forrester, who was also one of the "lives" inserted into "Stafford's Lease" upon the 6th renewal in Feb 1798.
2. the witness who signed for John's first codicil of 1794 was Samuel Downing.

John of Rowesgift was the son of Col. Adam Downing, who had a brother named Samuel (the elder), of Lemnaroy.
Samuel had two sons, Adam and John.
John had a son, Samuel, and two daughters, Mary and ELIZABETH, b. c.1742.  Elizabeth married James DOWNING (father unknown) in 1766.
This Elizabeth died before 12 Apr 1782 (date of an Indenture wherein she is described as "late wife deceased".
Ref: Deed Vol 345, img 37, Film# 8093709, p.59, Mem# 232063, dated 12 Apr 1782
That deed essentially transfers the rights to acreage in Lemnaroy, originally granted to Samuel the elder, his son Adam, and three others, by William Conolly in 1734, then held by James and his son John,
back to Elizabeth's brother, Samuel.  She and her father John being deceased, apparently James felt the land should be returned to it's original caretakers. 
That deed was witnessed by Dawson Downing of Rowesgift, son of John of Rowesgift.

3. Going back to the 2nd codicil of John's 1782 Will, dated 1 Feb 1797, you'll also notice that Dawson Downing, Samuel Downing, William Forrester (father of Robert?), and John Spotswood, are apparently appointed as appraisers to assess the valuation of the house and farm John currently occupied, upon his death.
Dawson and Samuel were 2nd cousins, both being great grandsons of Col. Adam's father, George Downing (d. before 18 Feb 1698 - date of the Will of Nicholas Downinge).
John Spotswood was a frequent witness to many Indentures to which John Downing of Rowesgift was a Principle.
It's obvious that these Downings interacted with each other on a regular basis and it seems to put John of Dreenan into the loop.

Knowing that John of Dreenan had a connection to Dawson and Samuel, it could be speculated that James, who married Elizabeth, granddaughter of Samuel the elder, was a son of Bernard, and one of John's four brothers.
We know George was the eldest, and I have ESTIMATED he was a young child at the time of his father's (presumed) 1734 lease.  The birth order of the other four sons and their known sister, Margaret, is not known, and could be over a significant time period.
It's not that much of a stretch to consider James was born in the late 1730s, or even a little later.  That would put him in his twenties when Elizabeth married in 1766, certainly plausible.

To speculate further, it's possible that James and Elizabeth's son, John, married sometime about 1795, give or take a few years, and had a daughter they named in honor of her mother, born in 1798; or
James and Elizabeth had another son, George, who married an 'Elizabeth', and they produced a family with forenames including John, Jane, William, Stafford, and perhaps Elizabeth, honoring several of James' brothers.
(Just to illustrate the multitude of potential branches upon which ELIZABETH SHARON DOWNING may be attached)

Offline dukewm

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #68 on: Tuesday 25 July 23 14:54 BST (UK) »
In reply to Mike's Reply # 65, who wrote: [Secondly, regarding the 'natural' sons of John Downing. I have read before that in these kind of legal contexts the phrase 'natural' when used regarding children often means illegitimate (or at least, born out of wedlock, whether they are accepted by the father or not is another matter). It doesn't seem there's full consensus on this, as others argue it just means 'biological son' with no other implication.]

I agree, I think the most likely scenario was that John and Francis were the ELDER illegitimate sons of John, born before he married Hester, and Stafford was the legitimate heir born after their marriage.

Offline wittstruck

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #69 on: Wednesday 18 October 23 20:53 BST (UK) »
While I am not descended from the Downey/Downings to my knowledge, I do have ancestors that claim their residence at Rowesgift.  This line of my ancestry are the Diamonds.  I don't know for sure how they first connected to the Rowesgift location, but there is a Nicholas Diamond who was born ca 1810 who married Ann Downey.

Has anyone run into any of these Diamonds in your Downey/Downing research?  Apparently there are still Diamonds that live in the vicinity of Rowesgift.

BTW, I purchased the kindlebook provided on Amazon by dukewm.  Thank you so much for this wealth of information.  The only Diamond that I have knowledge of that is connected to a Downey, would not have been of age to inhabit Rowesgift until 1830 or so and I didn't find deeds that transferred ownership or rents into that period of time.