A Wedding photo family Conundrum.

[Gan Yam]

Sarah's birthplace is Stanwix, Carlisle in the 1891 census.  Could this possibly be her with her mother and siblings in 1871.  Transcribed as Tepping and Stanwix as Stanwise

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5B1-FLK

and mum and sister in 1861 although mum is Mary in 61 and Margaret in 71, but think Margaret is the correct name as she is margaret in 1851 census.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7LF-YJ7


The children of Margaret Tipping don't have a father named on their birth certificate, but of course that doesn't mean they didn't know him or have a relationship with him,   could Sarah's father be James Smith of Holmes Court? just a thought!

[Gan Yam]

I have found another John James Turnbull baptised in Carlisle to a David and Jane Turnbull (no maiden name) on 7/9/1884. I suspect this one is the Smith grandson leaving my John James still missing in the 1891.

I think Jane maybe Jane Gibbs (b1841), she married David Turnbull in 1862, but there is no corresponding birth reg for a John James mmn Gibbs. This Jane and David appear to have had 2 sons, John and James who both died as babies .

[This Boy]

Thank you Ruskie for checking Gretna records.

Thanks again Gan Yam. You always try to help me and it is appreciated. I will have a look at those. I just got a bit distracted looking at John Lowther Turnbull as he was a Police Inspector who no doubt influenced his nephew John James to join the force. John James in turn inspired my father to join before both my brother and I both followed suit and signed up for 30 years each. So John Lowther Turnbull has a lot to answer for! There are some reports of John Lowther's police exploits in the British Newspaper Archive. After he retired from the police service he ran the Wheatsheaf Hotel at Wetheral. I have also found that John James' police records survive so I have applied for those too. I doubt they will help me find William and Sarah's marriage but this little foray is turning out more fruitful than I hoped and I am so grateful for the help I have received here. Sadly with events in London and Kent this week, tragically, this is not a good week for the British Police. I guess the Turnbull chaps would turn in their graves if they knew.

[This Boy]

Just to completely confuse me, my attention to John Lowther Turnbull's son, also John James Turnbull has just thrown up a possible marriage. 2nd Q 1908 a John James Turnbull married a Martha Tiffin or Martha Howe. My head hurts 

At least it is another lead to chase.

[Gan Yam]

Just to completely confuse me, my attention to John Lowther Turnbull's son, also John James Turnbull has just thrown up a possible marriage. 2nd Q 1908 a John James Turnbull married a Martha Tiffin or Martha Howe. My head hurts 

At least it is another lead to chase.

I saw that marriage, that John James was born in 1879 and appears to be the son of Joseph Turnbull and Mary Wilkinson and Martha Tiffen (b1887 mmn Burgess) was definitely his bride.  1911 census, son Bertram(b1910) has mmn Tiffin.  The plot thickens maybe!

[This Boy]

I am struggling to get my head around this Gan Yam but trying hard. Do you think the purchase of any certificates may help significantly? It may help to clear up the Tiffin, Tiffen, Tipping issue but I doubt it. Sarah Ann looks a pretty formidable woman in any case. Poor William looks like he is struggling to perch on the last couple of inches of the bench. 

[maddys52]

Sarah Ann looks a pretty formidable woman in any case. Poor William looks like he is struggling to perch on the last couple of inches of the bench. 

 

Sarah's birthplace is Stanwix, Carlisle in the 1891 census.  Could this possibly be her with her mother and siblings in 1871.  Transcribed as Tepping and Stanwix as Stanwise

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5B1-FLK

Yes, that's another possibility. Transcribed as LEPPING on Ancestry.    So many possibilities and name variants, so many unmarried parents!  Very interesting problem.

I was wondering if it might be an idea to start a new thread just looking for a marriage of William TURNBULL and Sarah Anne TIFFIN/TIPPNG/etc? , with a link to this thread. Some fresh eyes may have some fresh ideas. 

[This Boy]

What board do people think it would be best to post that specific issue as a separate thread?

I will try to draw together the evidence relating solely to that one specific issue ready to post later today.

Big thanks again.

[Gan Yam]

I am struggling to get my head around this Gan Yam but trying hard. Do you think the purchase of any certificates may help significantly? It may help to clear up the Tiffin, Tiffen, Tipping issue but I doubt it. Sarah Ann looks a pretty formidable woman in any case. Poor William looks like he is struggling to perch on the last couple of inches of the bench. 

As the guests are all wearing very impressive hats I am assuming that this was a church wedding.  I haven't checked but am assuming that Shakespeare Street was in Caldewgate in Poets corner and they would marry in Holy Trinity Church.  If everywhere was open I could have checked the marriage entry for you to see if the witnesses would give any clue.

There is another birth that's maybe for Stanwix Sarah's mother in 1872 Margaret Tipping 1872 died same quarter. No father on the entry. There is a possible death for this Sarah's brother Thomas Tipping in 1946.  If she turns out to be this Sarah, I can't see that her mother would have a problem with her never marrying William, but maybe the Turnbull's might not have been so forgiving! 

(strangely enough my the "smiths" lived in the same place as my gggrandparent who also lived in Holmes Court and William and Sarah lived in the Charlotte Terrace at the same time as a different set of my gggrandparents)