Isabella Porter born 1782 in Coldingham Berwickshire Parents

[geordiesue]

Hi I`m a bit confused as to who are the parents of Isabella Porter. Isabella was my 4 x great grandmother married to George Jackson in 1804 in Ayton Berwickshire in 1804.

On Ancestry Isabella`s baptism is 17 Feb 1782 in Coldingham, Berwickshire to parents John Porter and Alison Simpson.
On the 15th May 1785 there is a John Porter born in Coldingham, Berwickshire to parents John Porter and Alison Smith.
On the 23 July 1775 there is a record of marriage between John Porter and Alison Smith in Ayton, Berwickshire
On the 10 March 1776 in Ayton Bewickshire there is a record of baptism for a Thomas Porter with Parents John Porter and Alice Smith on family search
On the 25th Nov 1778 in Ayton, Berwickshire there is a record of baptism for a William Porter with Parents John Porter and Alice Smith on family search.
I dont know if these all belong to the same family or should I be looking for a record of marriage for a John Porter and Alison Simpson. She has been one of my brick walls for a long time.

 I was invited to join the tree on ancestry of another descendant of Isabella Porters living in New Zealand. We have shared a lot of information over the years but I hadn`t seen his tree which has left me a bit confused.

He has Alison Simpson as Isabella's mother. Then he has Alison Simpson born 29 March 1744 in Coldingham Berwick to John Simpson and Elizabeth Melrose. I dont know where the source came from but then he has the following for her marriage to John Porter

23 Jul 1775 • Haddington, East Lothian, Scotland

This couple had a second ceremony on 10 Aug 1775 at Ayton, after being "compeared" (examined) by the Elders and providing proof of the previous ceremony. The Groom was 16 yrs and the Bride was 31 yrs.

For the marriage of Alison Simpsons parents John Simpson and Elizabeth Melrose he has the following for their marriage

24 Apr 1744 • Coldingham, Berwickshire, Scotland

This couple had first "Proclaimed their intention to marry" in a Kirk at Bungle and Preston, Berwickshire on 28 Mar 1744 the day before their daughter Alison was baptised.

So Smith or Simpson that is the question? 

Any help would be much appreciated

Susan

[ColC]

Have you looked at the original records on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

You never know they might provide more information?

JOHN PORTER   Married    ALISON SMITH   23/07/1775   Ayton

PORTER   ISABEL   JOHN PORTER/ALISON SIMPSON    F   17/02/1782   Coldingham

Plus John 1785 Coldingham and Thomas 1776 & William 1778 at Ayton.

Colin

[Forfarian]

Never trust anything you find online unless it's an image of an original document, and especially do not trust online trees on Ancestry and other commercial web sites. Use them as pointers for further research, and always check the original documents.

Originals of all these events are available to view at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk at modest cost.

The records in the parish registers are not records of wedding ceremonies, but records of the proclamation of banns and/or associated payments into Kirk funds. If a couple lived in different parishes, their banns had to be proclaimed in both parishes, so you get two parallel records of the same event.

However Scotland's People does not have any record of a proclamation of John Porter and Alice/Alison Smith in Haddington. It has two listings in Ayton, one on 23 July and one on 10 August 1775. It may be that this is just a case of the clerk having forgotten that he had already recorded their proclamation, or it may be that the first record is the first proclamation and the second record is of the completion of the proclamations and possibly even the actual marriage ceremony. Or maybe they had actually married irregularly (i.e. not by a minister) in Haddington and had to 'own up' to this when they got home to Ayton.

Alison is a variant of the name Alice, so this is the same couple, and her surname is Smith.

The Simpson in one of the baptism records will be a mistake by the session clerk. Have you looked at the originals of all the baptisms? Are John's occupation and their residence listed? Who were the witnesses to the baptisms?

Which would mean, of course, that the daughter of John Simpson and Elizabeth Melrose has nothing to do with your Porter family. It looks as if someone has been looking around for the wife of John Porter (using the wrong surname), has found only one possible candidate, and assumed that she must be the right person. 

If John Porter and Alison Smith followed the Scottish naming tradition, you'd expect Alison's parents' given names to be William and Isabella.

Where did the couple's ages come from? I have never, ever, seen the age of a couple mentioned in a pre-1855 record of proclamation of banns. If it was 'calculated' from their supposed baptisms, beware! It's almost unheard of for a 16-year-old boy to marry, because before marrying a man had to be sure that he could support a wife and family. And since Alison Simpson (who would have been 31 years old in July 1775) is a red herring, her age cannot be relied on.

[geordiesue]

Have you looked at the original records on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

You never know they might provide more information?

JOHN PORTER   Married    ALISON SMITH   23/07/1775   Ayton

PORTER   ISABEL   JOHN PORTER/ALISON SIMPSON    F   17/02/1782   Coldingham

Plus John 1785 Coldingham and Thomas 1776 & William 1778 at Ayton.

Colin

Thank You Colin. Ive just signed up for Scotlandspeople so will have a look if theres any more information on there

[geordiesue]

Never trust anything you find online unless it's an image of an original document, and especially do not trust online trees on Ancestry and other commercial web sites. Use them as pointers for further research, and always check the original documents.

Originals of all these events are available to view at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk at modest cost.

The records in the parish registers are not records of wedding ceremonies, but records of the proclamation of banns and/or associated payments into Kirk funds. If a couple lived in different parishes, their banns had to be proclaimed in both parishes, so you get two parallel records of the same event.

However Scotland's People does not have any record of a proclamation of John Porter and Alice/Alison Smith in Haddington. It has two listings in Ayton, one on 23 July and one on 10 August 1775. It may be that this is just a case of the clerk having forgotten that he had already recorded their proclamation, or it may be that the first record is the first proclamation and the second record is of the completion of the proclamations and possibly even the actual marriage ceremony. Or maybe they had actually married irregularly (i.e. not by a minister) in Haddington and had to 'own up' to this when they got home to Ayton.

Alison is a variant of the name Alice, so this is the same couple, and her surname is Smith.

The Simpson in one of the baptism records will be a mistake by the session clerk. Have you looked at the originals of all the baptisms? Are John's occupation and their residence listed? Who were the witnesses to the baptisms?

Which would mean, of course, that the daughter of John Simpson and Elizabeth Melrose has nothing to do with your Porter family. It looks as if someone has been looking around for the wife of John Porter (using the wrong surname), has found only one possible candidate, and assumed that she must be the right person. 

If John Porter and Alison Smith followed the Scottish naming tradition, you'd expect Alison's parents' given names to be William and Isabella.

Where did the couple's ages come from? I have never, ever, seen the age of a couple mentioned in a pre-1855 record of proclamation of banns. If it was 'calculated' from their supposed baptisms, beware! It's almost unheard of for a 16-year-old boy to marry, because before marrying a man had to be sure that he could support a wife and family. And since Alison Simpson (who would have been 31 years old in July 1775) is a red herring, her age cannot be relied on.

Thank you that has been very helpful. I ordered an image from the parish registers and it mentions both the 23 july 1775 one in Ayton and the 10th Aug 1775. Ive attached a screen shot of it but it does mention Haddington

I dont know where they have gotten the ages from unless they presume there is a big age difference and that is why they had 2 marriages or unless they were looking for a birth of Alison Simpson and because they only found one in 1744 that fits then they have tried to justify it on the tree. There dosent seem to be a marriage for an Alison Simpson to John Porter but it seems like they have linked the Ayton Marriage of Alison Smith to John Porter. It seems more likely that Alison Smith is the correct name and Simpson was an error. I had found one death in Berwick for an Alison Porter in 1838 GRO gives her age as 91 which could mean I`d be looking for an Alison Smith born abt 1747

[Forfarian]

Have you looked at the second record to see what it says? As I understand it, the rules of the church forbade you to have two marriage ceremonies. There must be some other explanation for the second record.

There dosent seem to be a marriage for an Alison Simpson to John Porter but it seems like they have linked the Ayton Marriage of Alison Smith to John Porter.

Whom do you mean by 'they'?

[geordiesue]

Have you looked at the second record to see what it says? As I understand it, the rules of the church forbade you to have two marriage ceremonies. There must be some other explanation for the second record.

There dosent seem to be a marriage for an Alison Simpson to John Porter but it seems like they have linked the Ayton Marriage of Alison Smith to John Porter.

Whom do you mean by 'they'?

The clip I attached is the one in July and it was at the bottom of the marriage at Ayton in August. I cant make it all out properly but my daughter`s got better eyes than me so is going to try and transcribe it.

Sorry yes when I say `they ` I meant the tree holder on ancestry. It didnt say where the information came from but it could be why they are trying to put 2 and 2 together and coming up with a red heron

[Forfarian]

What you have posted looks like only part of it ".... Certificate of Matrimony Viz John Porter of the parish of Berwick upon Tweed Land Labourer and Alison Smith of the same parish were married at Haddington according to the Form of Matrimony prescribed and use by the Church of England on twenty third day of July 1775 by ...."

Yes, I think you have got a case of 2 + 2 = red herring.