William Bryden. Are they the same person?

[DIAshurst]

I'm looking for opinions on what could be two baptismal records for the same person.
William Bryden is the subject of this enquiry, who is my GGG Grandfather.  I believe he married Janet Hairstones, however this is not definite but most likely on the information I have.  He was shown as being born in Scotland on deceased on Charles (his son's) marriage certificate 20th September 1858.

The quandary I have is as follows.  I have two baptisms which have the same information with regards to the parents of William at two different locations on two different dates.  The locations are 13 miles apart.

1.
William Bryden
Male
Birth Date 12 Aug 1800
Birth Place  Morton By Thornhill, Dumfries, Scotland
Baptism Place Morton By Thornhill, Dumfries, Scotland
Father Robert Bryden
Mother Agnes Smith

2.
William Bryden
Male
Baptism Date 15 Dec 1799
Baptism Place Kirkmichael, Dumfries, Scotland
Father Robert Bryden
Mother Agnes Smith

William is nowhere to be seen in the 1941 census which shows Janet Hairstones and her children in Thornhill, Dumfriesshire, nor can I find record of him or his death.

Is this likely to be the same person in both Birth/Christening records?

Thank you for any observations you might have

[Forfarian]

Have you looked at the originals of both baptisms to see if there is any more information in either one?

[ColC]

WILLIAM BRYDEN   Birth/baptism   ROBERT BRYDEN/AGNES SMITH    12/08/1800   Morton

WILLIAM BRYDEN   Died   Age 74   SMITH   1874   Morton


WILLIAM BRYDEN   Birth/baptism   ROBERT BRYDEN/AGNES SMITH    15/12/1799   Kirkmichael

For information.

Colin

[ColC]

There were a number of marriages in the County for a William Bryden, none in Kirkmichael but 3 in Morton below.

BRYDEN   WILLIAM   JANET HAIRSTONES   26/07/1822   Morton
Children born Morton as you may know.

BRYDEN   WILLIAM   MARGARET KERR   21/10/1823   Morton
No children.

I suspect this is the one who died in 1874.

WILLIAM BRYDEN   Married    GRACE GEDDES   02/03/1827   Morton

They are on freecen 1841 at Meetinghouse St. - South Side, Morton, William is a mason Journeyman, all born Dumfriesshire.

There are 3 children, James Geddas 80 and James Hunter 20 a clerk, they are still there in 1861,
 William in noted as born Tinwald 1799?

1851 SP

WILLIAM BRYDEN   As above   1851   49   Morton   Dumfries

The only other one on census in the County
WILLIAM BRYDEN   On freecen 1861   1851      51   Tinwald   Dumfries

No deaths before 1855 on SP for Morton or Kirkmichael.

So I guess it depends on the child of any of the above that you are related to.

Colin

[ColC]

There were 6 Robert Bryden/Brydon’s born in Scotland 1768-1783, two in Dumfriesshire, which may not help.

BRYDEN   ROBERT   JOHN BRYDEN/ELIZABETH CORRIE    05/05/1776   Lochmaben
BRYDEN   ROBERT   JOHN BRYDEN/JANET CORRIE    21/03/1777   Kirkmichael

In the same period 164 Agnes Smith's in Scotland, 14 in Dumfriesshire, one in Kirkmichael and three in Lochmaben

No marriages for Robert & Agnes on SP

Children of ROBERT BRYDEN/AGNES SMITH

Kirkmichael
WILLIAM 15/12/1799, JOHN 8/11/1801, JANET 14/05/1803

Tinwald
MARYANN 1/04/1805, JEAN11/01/1809, JAMES SMITH 28/12/1810, JAMES 16/06/1813

Morton
WILLIAM 12/08/1800 – so if there were two Robert & Agnes marriages maybe this is the odd one out?

The following census on freecen, no record for the Janet & Thomas mentioned?

1841 - Trailflatt Village, Tinwald
BRYDEN   Robert   M   65   Labourer Bleacher   DFS
SMITH   Agnes   F   60      DFS
BRYDEN   Janet   F   25      DFS
BRYDEN   Thomas   M   20   Mason   DFS
BRYDEN   James   M   18   Mason   DFS


Colin

[DIAshurst]

Have you looked at the originals of both baptisms to see if there is any more information in either one?

Thank you for your suggestion.

I've looked at both documents.  It would appear that ther is no further information.

David

[DIAshurst]

WILLIAM BRYDEN   Birth/baptism   ROBERT BRYDEN/AGNES SMITH    12/08/1800   Morton

WILLIAM BRYDEN   Died   Age 74   SMITH   1874   Morton


WILLIAM BRYDEN   Birth/baptism   ROBERT BRYDEN/AGNES SMITH    15/12/1799   Kirkmichael

For information.

Colin

Thanks for your information.  These are both records I've found and which are confusing me.  Both parents with the same name.  The baptism before the birth and the location 13 miles apart.

The William I am looking to trace is shown as deceased on his sons marriage certificate in 1858.

There is a William Bryden in Thornhill married to Grace Geddes, however they do not, as far as I can see, have a son named Charles.

The William Bryden marriage to Janet Hairstones indicates them being in Morton by Thornhill at the
time of marriage.  A Janet Bryden is on the 1841 census in Thornhill with children and son called Charles, one of twins which feature in our tree. William is not on the census.

David

[DIAshurst]

There were a number of marriages in the County for a William Bryden, none in Kirkmichael but 3 in Morton below.

BRYDEN   WILLIAM   JANET HAIRSTONES   26/07/1822   Morton
Children born Morton as you may know.

BRYDEN   WILLIAM   MARGARET KERR   21/10/1823   Morton
No children.

I suspect this is the one who died in 1874.

WILLIAM BRYDEN   Married    GRACE GEDDES   02/03/1827   Morton

They are on freecen 1841 at Meetinghouse St. - South Side, Morton, William is a mason Journeyman, all born Dumfriesshire.

There are 3 children, James Geddas 80 and James Hunter 20 a clerk, they are still there in 1861,
 William in noted as born Tinwald 1799?

1851 SP

WILLIAM BRYDEN   As above   1851   49   Morton   Dumfries

The only other one on census in the County
WILLIAM BRYDEN   On freecen 1861   1851      51   Tinwald   Dumfries

No deaths before 1855 on SP for Morton or Kirkmichael.

So I guess it depends on the child of any of the above that you are related to.

Colin

Colin

Thanks for your reply.

I'm looking for William with a son named Charles who is shown as deceased when Charles was married in 1858.  The only one I can trace where a child named Charles was present is on the 1841 census with a 'mother' named Janet.  Although William is not on the census, the marriage of William to Jannet Hairstones 26/07/1822 gives a strong indication that this may be correct William.  I searched other possible William Brydens for a Charles without joy.  The fact the there are twins on the 1841 census again indicates this may be the right family

Regards

David

[Forfarian]

Have you looked at both original baptism records?