question on jewish history

[Josephine]

ive got a family where the jewish father is first seen in England in 1820, having come over from present day Poland....I know his grandchildren left the faith, but I dont know if his wife and daughters. in law were born jewish or converted....I can only see that one of his daughters in law was born in Portsea, where there was a. large jewish community, but the others were born in areas of England that were not noted for that and there are no clues in their families

When you say there are no clues in their families, do you mean in the family stories that have been passed down to the present time, or do you mean in the research you've done into the family?

[Ruskie]

ive got a family where the jewish father is first seen in England in 1820, having come over from present day Poland....I know his grandchildren left the faith, but I dont know if his wife and daughters. in law were born jewish or converted....I can only see that one of his daughters in law was born in Portsea, where there was a. large jewish community, but the others were born in areas of England that were not noted for that and there are no clues in their families

Have you found their marriage. There should be some clues there surely. It could be that the father did not follow the faith either.

[greyingrey]

thanks....when I. say wife, I can't find. a marriage...there was maybe an informal jewish ceremony...they lived in Nottingham and there was an address where these took place.

sadly, my branch of the family kept quiet about their jewish heritage...indeed they made jewish so called jokes.

but my grandfather...from the jewish line...gave my grandmother one of those agreements when they became engaged that states what he would bring into the marriage...sorrry, I can't remember the correct name.

other descendants have been told by their families that the grandchildren's generation...ie my. great grandparents....officially left the faith....but how far their parents and grandparents had followed it, I dont know.

apart from the clue that one daughter in law was born in Portsea, the daughters and. son in law and the wife or partner were all born in England and , as far back as I can see, their families had always lived in England and in parts of England where there weren't particularly large jewish populations.

by the way, jewish posters might be interested to know that there is reasonably strong...but, unfortunately not conclusive, evidence that a nobleman who lived at nottm castle had his life saved by a jew protected a group of jews in the city from expulsion and they masqueraded as a breakaway christian sect who celebrated on the jewish sabbath...they lived very near to the castle...we know that they existed but there remains the question as to whether they were really unorthodox. christians...it seems highly unlikely, but we have no proof

[coombs]

If Jewish people do say ” You always know who your mother is ,your father——-?” then, again it seems to be yet another sweeping statement about paternity and can be quite hurtful.

[Erato]

It's a legitimate point and that's why men are so touchy about it.

[Josephine]

thanks....when I. say wife, I can't find. a marriage...there was maybe an informal jewish ceremony...they lived in Nottingham and there was an address where these took place.

I'm not aware of an informal Jewish wedding ceremony. If such a thing exists, I hope someone will chime in and confirm.

If you haven't been able to find a marriage, it's possible they weren't married. That happened with some of my ancestors (one Jewish/Christian couple and one Protestant/Catholic couple, both in the 1800s).

Places you could look for clues (if the records still exist):

Burial records, funeral home records and obits. Were they buried in a Jewish or Christian cemetery?

Synagogue records. Are any of your relatives mentioned? Perhaps one was the president of his synagogue for a time.

Church records. It can be useful to check for baptisms, in addition to marriages and burials. Children of mixed-faith marriages were sometimes baptized; sometimes they weren't, but one might have been baptized as an adult, which could be a clue.

but my grandfather...from the jewish line...gave my grandmother one of those agreements when they became engaged that states what he would bring into the marriage...sorrry, I can't remember the correct name.

Was it a ketubah? If so, this would suggest that your grandparents were married in a synagogue.

other descendants have been told by their families that the grandchildren's generation...ie my. great grandparents....officially left the faith....but how far their parents and grandparents had followed it, I dont know.

Even if a Jewish person doesn't believe in God, or if s/he believes in God but isn't particularly religious, s/he is still a Jew, and therefore can still be married in a synagogue and buried in a Jewish cemetery. So your grandfather, for example, might not have been religious, but it sounds like he was Jewish, if he had a ketubah and was presumably married in a synagogue.

Regards,
Josephine

[Josephine]

If Jewish people do say ” You always know who your mother is ,your father——-?” then, again it seems to be yet another sweeping statement about paternity and can be quite hurtful.

Lots of people say that because, hurtful or not, it's true.

The wisdom behind the decision to follow matrilineal descent, which was made more than 3000 years ago, is borne out in the many TV shows we see today about DNA discoveries and family secrets.

[ThrelfallYorky]

As I mentioned quite early in this, if the mother is Jewish, that's clear. If the mother is not Jewish, then usually I'd think at least a conversion and the proper, formal marriage ceremonies would be needed.
-How sure are that your ancestors actually are Jewish? you seem to be having difficulty finding evidence of any Jewish links, so far.
good luck with your hunt.
TY

[coombs]

If Jewish people do say ” You always know who your mother is ,your father——-?” then, again it seems to be yet another sweeping statement about paternity and can be quite hurtful.

Lots of people say that because, hurtful or not, it's true.

The wisdom behind the decision to follow matrilineal descent, which was made more than 3000 years ago, is borne out in the many TV shows we see today about DNA discoveries and family secrets.

Yes I know it is true, but out of 100% it is estimated that only about 2 to 5% of such cases occurred. So about 1 in 20 of your male ancestors may not be a blood ancestor, that sounds right, so the chances the ones you have traced are actual ancestors is still very high.

Anyway, I always thought anyone could convert to any religion they wanted to, and that anyone could be a Jew if they wished.