How do I find Mary Ann Burns ??

[LauraJC]

The obvious problem you are likely to have is that the name is so common, and there are likely to be numerous people with that name.

Can you tell us the information on Sarah and Mary Ann’s birth certificates please?

Yeah the name is really common, even when I search in Wales.

I have both their birth and baptism certificates. If I knew how to attach them I would.

Mary Burns (Illegitimate) Born 26 May 1889 in East Poor House Dundee. Mother Mary Ann Burns, Jute Spinner, domicil (??) South Church Street Lochee.
Her Baptism certificate (I think it's hers as the birthdate, name, and mother's name is the same) was registered in St Sylvesters in Elgin, sponsor Mary Wilson of Clova(??) or Cluva(??).

Sarah Burns (Illegitimate) Born January 22nd 1884 in East Poor House Dundee. Again mother is listed as Mary Ann Burns, Jute Spinner. Domiciled at - it's really difficult to read but looks like 111/117 High Street Lochee.
Her Baptism certificate is in St Marys Lochee Dundee and the sponsor is Maria Donnelly.

My great grandmother is Mary Burns. On her marriage certificate in 1909 it lists her mother as Mary Ann Holt (Mary Ann Burns) - deceased. Her father as James Holt, Stonemason - deceased. I found a James Holt - married to Mary Ann Burns, in Kinross. He died March 22nd 1889 and is listed as labourer (vagrant) found by inspector of the poor.

[LauraJC]

I have no idea if this is relevant, but in the 1891 Scottish census there is a 3 year old Mary Burns born in Dundee, an inmate of the Dundee Combination Poorhouse.

There is also a 32 year old Mary Burns, who may or may not be related. This Mary Burns is born Ireland, occupation is “formerly millworker jute”. There is no Sarah with them. No Sarahs which fit the criteria are showing up in the 1891 Scottish census.

On Mary and Sarah’s birth certificates was their mother Mary’s occupation given?

Thank you so much. This could be her.

[LauraJC]

In 1901 it looks like Mary, age 11, a scholar, is in the Smyllum Orphanage, which it seems that you are aware of.

Sarah is there too, aged 15, a scullerymaid.

Yes, Sarah was a scullerymaid, according to my grandmother 

[LauraJC]

Welcome to Rootschat 

There's an interesting family boarding with the Phinns in the 1881 Census in Dundee:

93 Ann Street, Dundee

James Phinn, 40, gen labourer, b. Ireland
(and family)
Mary Ann Burns, boarder, unmar, 30, Mill Worker (Jute) , b. Ireland
Thomas Burns, boarder, 7, b. Dundee
Margaret Burns, 5, b. Dundee

There were 4 or 5 birth registrations for a Margaret so I looked for a Thomas:

March 14 1874
Thoams Burns (illegitimate)
b. 11 William Street, King Street, Dundee.
Mother - Mary Ann Burns, Jute Preparer

I don't know if this is your Mary Ann but it's worth keeping on the back burner as this seems to fit with Ruskie's Reply #4


Gadget

Thank you. If it is her then she can't have been the same Mary Burns age 32 in 1891 in the poorhouse with Mary.

[LauraJC]

It was not unusual for children from Dundee to be placed at Smyllum in and around the 1880s, even those who still had a parent living. Often, they were considered to be paupers.The Dundee Parochial Board seemed to look on it as being as economical to do that, as to maintain them at home, albeit ratepayers of Dundee disputed this and there was public outcry. At the time, it was suggested that the Church discouraged local Dundee families from taking on such children, as the priests supposedly had a greater interest in supporting Smyllum than seeing local families paid to take them on. As an example, Dundee Parish at one point  seemingly sent 54 children, whilst Glasgow only set 11.

 You say the father was named on both birth cerificates, albeit not married to Mary Ann. What was his name? If the children knew his surname, they could have used it in later years.

Thank you. Sorry I was wrong, he isn't named on their birth certificates but he is named on Mary's marriage certificate and she is down as 'Mary Holt', my grandmother says James Holt is definitely her and Sarah's father.

That's really interesting about Smyllum thanks.

According to my grandmother, Sarah and Mary were taken by the 'Society for Waifs and Strays' because they were found wandering the streets. They were definitely in Smyllum. Mary used the father's name on her marriage certificate (Mary Holt), although I can't find any evidence Mary Ann Burns and James Holt were ever married.

I'm trying to find Mary Ann Holt but it's proving difficult. Apparently she went to Wales to stay with his (James Holt's??) family and died there.

[cuffie81]

Having a very quick search in newspapers there are a number of references to a Mary Ann Burns and the following addresses:

William Street, King Street, Dundee
Ann Street, Dundee
South Church Street, Lochee

Possible relations:
mother Margaret Burns or Harper
sister Margaret Burns
sister Ann Burns or Philips
cousin James Keenan

I don't have time at moment to write up the details but if one else can, I'll do it this evening. I just wanted to point out some possible leads.

[Gadget]

Having a very quick search in newspapers there are a number of references to a Mary Ann Burns and the following addresses:

William Street, King Street, Dundee
Ann Street, Dundee

Those were the addresses on the census and birth registration that I gave in my earlier reply - Reply #7.

Gadget

[LauraJC]

Oh thank you 

I don't know how to find newspapers, but I do have a subscription to the British newspaper archives so I'll try that.

[cuffie81]

Having a very quick search in newspapers there are a number of references to a Mary Ann Burns and the following addresses:

William Street, King Street, Dundee
Ann Street, Dundee

Those were the addresses on the census and birth registration that I gave in my earlier reply - Reply #7.

It was why I was searching on them Gadget.