Author Topic: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?  (Read 4492 times)

guest259648

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Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #90 on: Monday 28 June 21 06:49 BST (UK) »
Just to go back to my ‘favourite’ name, I spent a long time searching for our Julia. Eventually, I found her registered and baptised as Joanna but on the census, married and died as Julia.

Heywood
I'm confused now!
Is this the same Julia d.1856 Easington?
D

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Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #91 on: Monday 28 June 21 06:57 BST (UK) »
No she’s mine.
At the time Maiden Stone and dublin1850 were discussing how names could change in different records.
Sorry to confuse you.
I just referred to the name as my ‘favourite’ because I had gone on so much about ‘Julia’ Rice.
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guest259648

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Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #92 on: Monday 28 June 21 07:02 BST (UK) »

  What were the 3 versions of your female ancestor's forename?
And what is missing from her maiden surname in the birth index?

 They were in a West Lancashire agricultural district on 1841 census (taken in summer), men ag. labs, women hawkers. They'd moved to Preston by 1851 and were working in mills. 
There were more opportunities for paid work in England than in Ireland.

Maiden Stone, thank you

What exactly is a 'hawker' and did women do this too? I've never properly known.

One of the articles you kindly showed me said that the Irish moved around "like shoals of fish" and were prepared to be nomadic in order to find work (put food on the table).
Some people think this constant shifting-around is a fault of character (i.e. the Irish didn't seem able to stay in the same place) - but surely they miss the point?  You have to go where the money is, or you starve...

D


guest259648

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Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #93 on: Monday 28 June 21 07:06 BST (UK) »
No she’s mine.
At the time Maiden Stone and dublin1850 were discussing how names could change in different records.
Sorry to confuse you.
I just referred to the name as my ‘favourite’ because I had gone on so much about ‘Julia’ Rice.

Heywood, morning
That's OK!

Julia is a lovely name, it goes way back to the Romans I think?

Regarding my original question: I am focusing on the idea that 'Turet' = SARAH.
I've found a John Rice + Sarah in Middlesbrough in a later census, their ages are 12 years apart (she's the older one), just as on the Seaham 1851. I will follow this up and post up some more details today.

D


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Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #94 on: Monday 28 June 21 07:28 BST (UK) »
That sounds good  :)
Turet and Sarah - same number of letters etc
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Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #95 on: Monday 28 June 21 14:42 BST (UK) »
What exactly is a 'hawker' and did women do this too? I've never properly known.

One of the articles you kindly showed me said that the Irish moved around "like shoals of fish" and were prepared to be nomadic in order to find work (put food on the table).
Some people think this constant shifting-around is a fault of character (i.e. the Irish didn't seem able to stay in the same place) - but surely they miss the point?  You have to go where the money is, or you starve...


Hawking is carrying items about to sell. They might have stood on a street or gone door-to-door, carrying their merchandise in a basket.
Not to be confused with "howking" as in "tattie howking" which was another thing Irish migrant labourers did. That means harvesting potatoes.
My granddad first went to England when he was a lad in his teens with a gang of haymakers and  harvesters. He was a "spalpeen", "an spailpin fanach", "the wandering labourer". Gangs of Irish haymakers were known as "scythe-men" or "July barbers". One of his memories was his group leaving their lodgings at midnight after finishing their haymaking stint in Lancashire and crossing into Yorkshire a couple of hours later, removing their boots so they could pass silently through a settlement where local men had fought with them in an earlier year.   
Article about spalpeens and tattie hokers on The Dustbin of History blog
https://thedustbinofhistory.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/na-spailpini/

There are vagrant passes for travel through Lancashire to Liverpool for all my Irish surnames in 1820's. The British government feared that due to conditions in Ireland, a large influx of Irish labourers to Britain in 1830s would cause local workers to become unemployed and lead to unrest. A strategy to avoid that scenario was to encourage and subsidise Irish emigration to British colonies.
 
Cowban

guest259648

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Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #96 on: Tuesday 29 June 21 14:21 BST (UK) »
What exactly is a 'hawker' and did women do this too? I've never properly known.

One of the articles you kindly showed me said that the Irish moved around "like shoals of fish" and were prepared to be nomadic in order to find work (put food on the table).
Some people think this constant shifting-around is a fault of character (i.e. the Irish didn't seem able to stay in the same place) - but surely they miss the point?  You have to go where the money is, or you starve...



My granddad first went to England when he was a lad in his teens with a gang of haymakers and  harvesters. He was a "spalpeen", "an spailpin fanach", "the wandering labourer". Gangs of Irish haymakers were known as "scythe-men" or "July barbers". One of his memories was his group leaving their lodgings at midnight after finishing their haymaking stint in Lancashire and crossing into Yorkshire a couple of hours later, removing their boots so they could pass silently through a settlement where local men had fought with them in an earlier year.   


Maiden Stone
Thanks so much for this.
Your granddad's testimony is valuable - and rather alarming!
So there was always a potential for violence, when these Irish came over for work.

Do you have any more stories from your granddad?
It's helping me to understand how my own family must have lived, while trying to establish a new base in late 19th century England.

Also: it disturbs me to find that nomadic people looking for work are classed as 'vagrants'. It seems insulting.
Just because a person doesn't have a fixed home at a particular point doesn't make them a criminal.
 Of course, there are are always a minority of humans who live a lawless life, but people who are trying to work aren't usually those.
But I can see why travelling peoples could be seen as a threat, and it's still happening today, e.g. I lived on the UK south coast for a while, and there were terrible problems when the Eastern European economic migrants flooded in, and literally took over some of our coastal towns. [The locals were up in arms.]

D

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Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #97 on: Tuesday 29 June 21 15:57 BST (UK) »

So there was always a potential for violence, when these Irish came over for work.


Also: it disturbs me to find that nomadic people looking for work are classed as 'vagrants'. It seems insulting.

 But I can see why travelling peoples could be seen as a threat, and it's still happening today, e.g. I lived on the UK south coast for a while, and there were terrible problems when the Eastern European economic migrants flooded in, and literally took over some of our coastal towns.

A reason for resentment was that Irish labourers might be taking work from locals or causing wage deflation because they were willing to work for less money.
Gangs of men may seem intimidating to onlookers. Some drank too much on Saturday nights. A fight might break out. Many were doing tough jobs, mining, construction, living in camps. Accommodation for seasonal farm labouring gangs might be an outhouse.
There was occasional conflict over religious or political differences, sometimes stirred up by agitators for their own ends. (e.g. Irish iron workers in Cumberland in late 19th C.)
Irish nationalist movements late 18th-early 20th centuries some of which turned to violence  e.g. I.R.B. (Fenians) [Michael Davitt 1846-1906 was a local Fenian organiser who later became a prominent national leader; a priest at my church was a cousin of one of the 3 executed "Manchester Martyrs".]

Possession of a vagrant pass allowed the bearer to travel through a parish and spend a night there without being stopped by a parish constable and expelled from the parish. It was like an internal passport. They were necessary because of the English Poor Laws, vagrancy acts and rights of settlement. Parish authorities didn't want poor people from elsewhere arriving in their parish for no good reason and lingering there. People were entitled to poor relief only in a parish where they had right of settlement.  Discharged Irish soldiers who had served in the British Army in the French wars had vagrant passes through Lancashire to Liverpool to embark for Ireland. 
English Poor Law and Vagrancy Acts date from the reign of Queen Elizabeth. Monasteries helped poor and sick people prior to the English Reformation. A replacement system of social care for poor and ill people was needed after monasteries were abolished. Civil parishes took on the responsibility. 


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Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #98 on: Tuesday 29 June 21 16:16 BST (UK) »
Explanations + more info about vagrants and vagrant passes.
The term "vagrant" was fluid.
Irish Genealogy News https://www.irishgenealogynews.com has an article about Lancashire Vagrant Passes 1801-1835.
Dorset Vagrant Passes 1739-1791 explanation on Ancestry.
The Workhouse website www.workhouses.org.uk/vagrants/index.shtml has an article "Tramps and Vagrants".
Cowban