Assistance needed..Elizabeth Kelly born Castlereagh 1927

[Kylie Watson]

If Ellen's occupation is noted as a farmer's wife but her marital status is listed as a widow then one might reason that perhaps Patrick Masterson the labourer listed on Catherine Masterson's wedding registration could still be Patrick Masterson the shoemaker? Would it not depend on who was the informant in each instance on what the occupation was put down as? Is what I am proposing feasible?

He is described as  shoemaker on his death in 1923
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1923/05043/4380126.pdf

And Ellen is described as a Farmer’s wife on her death in 1935
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1935/04828/4301159.pdf

[heywood]

Yes that is so and also, if I recall, Michael Kelly was a labourer so there could be any reason - open to interpretation.

[Kylie Watson]

Thanks.. just trying to work out whether I'm reaching too far or not. One thing I can be certain of is I know Elizabeth Kelly is our link and I know she has to have a very close connection to the Masterson's as we have DNA matches with at least 6 close descendants of Patrick Masterson and Ellen Loftus. Everything fits perfectly if I connect Elizabeth up to Patrick and Ellen's Catherine Masterson but I'm not satisfied but I'm not happy until I've found some kind of definitive evidence.

Yes that is so and also, if I recall, Michael Kelly was a labourer so there could be any reason - open to interpretation.

[heywood]

Have you applied for Elizabeth Kelly’s birth certificate?

[Kylie Watson]

I have emailed GRO in Roscommon in regards to this but have not received any response as yet. I have a contact in Ireland and I have just emailed them and asked them if they can find out if this is possible on my behalf (I am in Australia). I am a little confused as I am aware that her birth is less than 100 years old and I may not be able to order it. Other information I have received via this thread indicates that I may be able to order a "research copy" and I am hoping this is correct. I just don't understand why it would be listed in the Civil Registration Indexes if protected by the 100 year rule?

Have you applied for Elizabeth Kelly’s birth certificate?

[Elwyn Soutter]

Birth records less than 100 years old are available to the public but not on-line, to prevent data trawling. So that’s why you have to order a copy of the certificate.

The pdf version is a photocopy of the original entry. A full certificate is 4 times the price and comes on fancy paper. If you were using it for some official purpose eg applying for a passport, that’s what you would need but if it’s just for genealogical research then the pdf photocopy is just as good and a lot cheaper.

[Kylie Watson]

Elwyn thanks for the clarification, now all I need to do is wait for GRO to get in touch with me!

Birth records less than 100 years old are available to the public but not on-line, to prevent data trawling. So that’s why you have to order a copy of the certificate.

The pdf version is a photocopy of the original entry. A full certificate is 4 times the price and comes on fancy paper. If you were using it for some official purpose eg applying for a passport, that’s what you would need but if it’s just for genealogical research then the pdf photocopy is just as good and a lot cheaper.

[Maiden Stone]

Is this the Masterson/Loftus family you have?
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Corraun_Achill/Tonregee__East/1603415/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Corraun/Tonregee__East/745035/

The birth of that Catherine
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02301/1862927.pdf

However her father is a Shoemaker (and farmer in the census) but Catherine’s father, Patrick on her marriage is a Labourer.

Also, similar to Maiden Stone with regard to work, my mother in law, raised close to Achill, was in service in Cloonfad, Roscommon in the 1920s.

He is described as a shoemaker on his death in 1923
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1923/05043/4380126.pdf

And Ellen is described as a Farmer’s wife on her death in 1935
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1935/04828/4301159.pdf

Shoemaking + farming seem to have been Patrick's consistent occupations. Shoemaking was a skill. He probably learned young. Being a farmer was a settled occupation. Income from shoemaking would have supplemented that from the farm. It doesn't sit right with me that a man who was a farmer and had a skill would temporarily switch to being a labourer in old age and that his daughter would put labourer as his occupation when she married. In my experience of family history research, people were more likely to increase the status of their fathers on marriage certificates, not minimise it.
Speaking personally, an ancestor was a shoemaker (cordwainer on his marriage certificate, a skilled maker of good quality footwear). I'm a daughter, granddaughter, great-granddaughter &c of farmers. Being a farmer and landholder had a status, no matter how small the farm or how poor the family. They may have been labourers as young men (the Irish ones working in England) but once they'd taken over farms they were farmers or landholders, even if they had to supplement their income with other work. Struggles for occupation and ownership of land in Ireland were crucial in Irish history. If I'd been Catherine, I would have said my dad was a farmer or a shoemaker, even if he was temporarily working as a labourer. *
 
Looking again at census returns for household of Patrick Masterson, shoemaker, I noticed that, in the read & write column, 7 year-old Catherine could read on 1901 census but 18 year-old Catherine on 1911 census couldn't read or write.  Her 14 year-old sister was a scholar in 1911. Most children would have left school by that age. I wonder what she did in later life?

Do you think that Brian, informant of Ellen's death in 1935, was Bernard on 1901 & 1911 census?

If Catherine's father was a labourer, he may have travelled to get work.

*Added. "Labourer" for Catherine's father's occupation may have been a clerical error. Michael's father was a labourer.

[Elwyn Soutter]

I agree that folk were often conscious of their status in rural Irish society and would not routinely call someone a labourer if they were a farmer. That said obviously peoples circumstances did change but in general, as Maiden Stone has said, folk tended to “promote” their fathers' occupation rather than reduce it.

Dr William Roulston’s excellent book: “Researching Farming Ancestors in Ireland” mentions Land Holders. The term Land Holder in Ireland meant someone with about one or two acres of land. So better off than a labourer but not big enough to be described as a farmer.

Testifying before a Royal Commission in 1886, Dr Grimshaw, the Registrar General of Ireland said: “ There is a very common return in the Census – “land holder”, a great number of the labourers return themselves as landholders – they won’t demean themselves by calling themselves labourers and they are not dignified enough to call themselves farmers.”