Author Topic: Understanding Lithuanian records .years recorded+ when ages given or not.  (Read 445 times)

Offline brigidmac

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Understanding Lithuanian records .years recorded+ when ages given or not.
« on: Wednesday 29 September 21 07:06 BST (UK) »
I can only see transcripts
*this Lithuanian record has Doba DOBKIN
As the only person without age given .
Clicking on her profile
Wife of Izrel DOBKIN
But further on list
Dina-ShifraFELMAN. Is also listed as  wife * could it just be married woman in his household

There are two heads of household listed so i wonder if it is a mistranscription .

* The years dont make sense if it is a census from 1876 why are the dates of last 2 children after that?
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Understanding Lithuanian records .Dora DOBKIN
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 29 September 21 08:00 BST (UK) »
The other head of household is Evel .mikhel FELMAN
There may be several marriages between DOBKIN s+ FELMAN s

List includes grandchildren and daughters in law of Izrel DOBKIN
If it is all same family
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Understanding Lithuanian records .Dora DOBKIN
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 29 September 21 10:52 BST (UK) »
im unraveling this list with the help of another record from 1887 &

#Getting in a right muddle ..more like

with Evel Mikhel FELMAN as head
wife Dina

this time no Dobkins + several of Evel Mikhels sons are named but ages not given but their children listed as grandsons + granddaughters are listed with ages


this is 11 years later  how can Evel now have so many grandchildren from his sons who were only 12 .9+ 6

i thought maybe when no age given  it might mean they had died.

some of the dates are after the date of the" revision " record so what exactly is a revision record

for example iosel son of chaim shalom Felman has birth date as 1897 age last revision 1887 oct 30
that could be a misinterpretation of meaning on original record i suppose

also evels children have father as evel mikel [izrel Dobkin ]
im wondering if square brackets means 'son of 'or in this case "son in law "


Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson


Offline brigidmac

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Re: Understanding Lithuanian records .years recorded+ when ages given or not.
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 29 September 21 16:37 BST (UK) »
The more i look at these record transcrlptions the less i understand them
The only years given on the second family list are after the revision dates but it does state one marriage date and that Reize - mera Felman is Leybe's second wife.

I.ll wait for someone to come on board who has experience of these records
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline manukarik

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Re: Understanding Lithuanian records .years recorded+ when ages given or not.
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 29 September 21 20:43 BST (UK) »
Revision or ревизия – revizia apparently just means census. 

Could the 2 names be linked to the custom of  Jewish people usually  having  two  given  names,  such  as  Abram-Zelik,  Dov-Ber,  Naftali-Girsh,  etc.  The  first  was  a  synagogue  name  used  to  sign  Hebrew documents; the second name, called kinui [кинуй], was used in everyday life.

This link may (or may not be of help!):
https://www.litvaksig.org/images/custom/Census%20Records%20Zeimelis.pdf

I'm assuming a Jewish connection de to the name Izrel.
Clarkson, Tolladay, Prevost, Killick, Hicks

Offline manukarik

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Re: Understanding Lithuanian records .years recorded+ when ages given or not.
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 29 September 21 21:05 BST (UK) »
1908 Census has Dina Felman (age 67, born abt 1841) married to Evel Mikhel Felman and living in Salakas, Zarasai, Kaunus.

Very confusing! Was some standardisation of names going on? The link I posted before suggests that:
"Surnames  for  the  Jews  of  the  early  19th  century  were  generally  lacking.  In  1804  a  law
applying to Jews directed that “each  Jew  must  have,  or  take,  his  own  inherited  surname,
which must be used in all records and writing without change, together with the  name given
according to faith, or at birth.”  The process of carrying out this directive went on for years.
Four years later, in 1808, a law again ordered “all Jews to take a surname, wherever that has
not yet been done.”   Jews  did  not  differ  much  in  this  regard  from  other  non-privileged
classes of society since “at the end of the 19th century, not only among peasants but even in
the merchant class, the establishment of permanent surnames was not yet complete.”
"

Clarkson, Tolladay, Prevost, Killick, Hicks

Offline JustinL

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Re: Understanding Lithuanian records .years recorded+ when ages given or not.
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 30 September 21 11:49 BST (UK) »
Hello Brigid,

I would urge you to search and view the records on JewishGen, the source of Ancestry's data. Ancestry has had to shoehorn the census data into it's standard database and some of the important information appears to have been lost.

Attached are screenshots of the records as they appear in JewishGen.

Offline JustinL

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Re: Understanding Lithuanian records .years recorded+ when ages given or not.
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 30 September 21 11:50 BST (UK) »
Here's the Dobkin family.

These old record can often be very difficult to read. I imagine that Doba Dobkin's age was simply illegible.

However, she was recorded as aged 46 in the census of 1858.

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Understanding Lithuanian records .years recorded+ when ages given or not.
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 30 September 21 11:54 BST (UK) »
Thanks Justin definitely more reliable information there
I will get back onto Jewish gen

Thanks for the comments and links manukarik i wrote a longer reply that has disappeared into computer space
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson