Author Topic: Can anybody throw any light on this unidentified mounted (WWI?) soldier ?  (Read 1730 times)

Offline cliffkinch

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Re: Can anybody throw any light on this unidentified mounted (WWI?) soldier ?
« Reply #27 on: Monday 11 October 21 14:59 BST (UK) »
Is that "yellow" and red outline  showing the rear of a mule and the man's head, if hatless, is that a mule laden up over his left shoulder.  ... 

WWI ... the British Empire .... Canafa, New Zealand, India, Australia ... all had Horse Brigades ...  at the front, but also as general transport of stores, tents for clearing hospitals, and many other logistics etc.

JM. Edited to make better sense.

Yes the red outlines the horse/mule behind. The yellow is there to suggest something behind the chap's head
Cliff
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Offline Michael J

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Re: Can anybody throw any light on this unidentified mounted (WWI?) soldier ?
« Reply #28 on: Monday 11 October 21 15:51 BST (UK) »
A Forage cap is worn on the right-hand side of the head, so I think this man is bare-headed.

The rifle appears to be a Lee-Enfield Mk 3 (hardly any barrel protrusion beyond the woodwork), used during WW1.

Added: 'un-British embroidered decoration on the waistcoat (his left side)' - I think this is just a crease in the photo, it continues down over the horse's flank.

Offline majm

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Re: Can anybody throw any light on this unidentified mounted (WWI?) soldier ?
« Reply #29 on: Monday 11 October 21 16:09 BST (UK) »
Lithgow, New South Wales, Australia, Small Arms Factory produced L-E mk 3 from around 1913 and throughout WWI,  so  too a small arms factory in India.   :) 

I have asked one of my ancient living rellies who grew up with horses to take a look at the waistcoated chap ....  :)

JM, in NSW, Australia .... its ummm .... late .... 2.08 a.m.   Tuesday morning. 
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Offline kob3203

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Re: Can anybody throw any light on this unidentified mounted (WWI?) soldier ?
« Reply #30 on: Monday 11 October 21 18:48 BST (UK) »
A Forage cap is worn on the right-hand side of the head, so I think this man is bare-headed.

The rifle appears to be a Lee-Enfield Mk 3 (hardly any barrel protrusion beyond the woodwork), used during WW1.

Added: 'un-British embroidered decoration on the waistcoat (his left side)' - I think this is just a crease in the photo, it continues down over the horse's flank.

You're spot on about my "embroidered decoration" actually being a crease in the photo ! It's obvious if you look at the photo as a whole, rather than just the three standing chaps (which I failed to do).

Looking at several photos of British WWI servicemen wearing forage caps you seem to be correct, so that now seems unlikely. But a Serbian Šajkača (which ShaunJ mentioned) possibly wouldn't follow this rule ? However, as tonepad pointed out the environment looks more like Britain than the Balkans so the Serbian idea may be a red herring.

It could well be that the central chap is bare-headed and what I mistook for headwear is something on the back of the horse behind him as has been suggested, or something behind that horse. But I don't have any sensible explanation of what that could be.

Does anybody have an explanation for the "frilly shirt" that I see ?



Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline majm

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Re: Can anybody throw any light on this unidentified mounted (WWI?) soldier ?
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 12 October 21 01:12 BST (UK) »
Waistcoat ... his shirt is loose, undone so its bunched up. 

The National Library of Australia has an absolutely fantastic resource, free to search, etc and an excellent search engine.  Trove - it's a treasure.  There are many categories, the most popular is the newspaper one.  There's also Images, Maps etc... and another is just for Diaries, letters etc.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/

So via Trove I offer the following:

https://purl.slwa.wa.gov.au/slwa_b1894454_44  that's to set of photos in an album held at the Western Australia State Library. 

I attach a snip from the photo on the cover of that album.

There's waistcoats, over shirts,  there's horses, there's Egypt, there's officers, there's clues.   There's Australian Imperial Force volunteers with their horses, serving the Empire.    Likely other former British Colonies, Dominions and Territories will have similar online resources.   

JM

The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Offline majm

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Re: Can anybody throw any light on this unidentified mounted (WWI?) soldier ?
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 12 October 21 01:37 BST (UK) »
So from that snip you will notice that under their uniforms there's a shirt and a waistcoat, and they could push their forage cap back and it could even slip to the back left of their heads.   Likely similar 'under-wear' could have been available for issue for all the Forces serving the British Empire.

ADD notice the horses are hobbled and they are also secured to the long thick cable/rope along the ground via constraints tie into equi-spaced hooks along that thick rope.   My rellie says:
 :) There should be a wheelbarrow for each horse.
 :) Probably should refer to waistcoat as a VEST. 
 :) Each horseman was the ONLY person allowed to look after their own horse because the horse had been provided by the enlistee when he volunteered.  The Australian soldiers knew their horses would not be allowed to return to Australia - Public Health rules.
 :) The background in the OPs photo could be vineyards or ploughed land, but why would the farmers have allowed anyone to plant or plough DOWN the slope ... it causes erosion, better to plant or plough across the slope, retaining the integrity of the land, forming detention basins for rain, etc.
 :) Yes to Lee-Enfield Mk 3 rifle.   

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline kob3203

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Re: Can anybody throw any light on this unidentified mounted (WWI?) soldier ?
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 12 October 21 05:50 BST (UK) »
The British Army (except for the Royal Flying Corps) didn't have that sort of field service cap in the WW1 era.

The Šajkača however is the traditional headdress worn by men in the Serbian countryside. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ajka%C4%8Da

It would appear that forage (or field service) caps like that were used in (or pre) WWI by Kings Own Royal Lancaster Regiment for one, and probably many others - see the two 7th June 2014 posts and photos by mark holden on this subject https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/212669-forage-cap/?tab=comments#comment-2101963

Taken together with majm's photo (two posts back https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7221783#msg7221783 ) showing an Australian with his cap on the wrong side I now wouldn't rule this out completely.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: Can anybody throw any light on this unidentified mounted (WWI?) soldier ?
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 12 October 21 06:26 BST (UK) »
Could it be that the central chap is carrying something over his right shoulder, and that my "shirt frills" are another misinterpretation ?

The version on the left is what I thought I saw originally, The version in the centre is unmarked for comparison, and the version on the right is what I now think it might actually be provided we can come with a reasonable identification of what it could be hanging over his shoulder.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: Can anybody throw any light on this unidentified mounted (WWI?) soldier ?
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday 12 October 21 06:35 BST (UK) »
Waistcoat ... his shirt is loose, undone so its bunched up. 

The National Library of Australia has an absolutely fantastic resource, free to search, etc and an excellent search engine.  Trove - it's a treasure.  There are many categories, the most popular is the newspaper one.  There's also Images, Maps etc... and another is just for Diaries, letters etc.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/

So via Trove I offer the following:

https://purl.slwa.wa.gov.au/slwa_b1894454_44  that's to set of photos in an album held at the Western Australia State Library. 

I attach a snip from the photo on the cover of that album.

There's waistcoats, over shirts,  there's horses, there's Egypt, there's officers, there's clues.   There's Australian Imperial Force volunteers with their horses, serving the Empire.    Likely other former British Colonies, Dominions and Territories will have similar online resources.   

JM

The chap third from right with the forage cap and waistcoat (or should I say field service cap and vest) seems to be a very good match clothing-wise, and the chap on the left with his cap on the wrong side (assuming Australians wore them on the right too) indicates that we probably shouldn't rule it out just because of the left/right position.

But if the chap in question is wearing a cap it's at an extremely jaunty angle.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)