Author Topic: When was Joseph Bounsall born? Prob in 1730s, poss. in Hatherleigh or Launceston  (Read 746 times)

Offline TadlowNewell

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The early (18C) genealogy of the Bounsall family of Devon is particularly badly recorded in public trees (over 200 on Ancestry alone). In fact it is so atrocious it makes me angry. I am trying to untangle some of the untruths, and find firm evidence/proof from primary sources. Specifically, I'd like some help to find the birth date of one "Joseph Bounsall", probably born in the 1730s, probably in Devon. I have searched everywhere I know, using all the usual tricks, various spelling variants etc.

Here's what I do know for sure, so far:
  • Joseph Bounsell, a Tailor, married Arminell Angell 27 June 1761 in Greenwich, London. (London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns 1754-1932, 31280_198167-00169)
  • Arminell was baptised 22 Feb 1736 in Hatherleigh, Devon (parents James and Armenell nee Walker)
  • Arminell bore Joseph eight children between 1762 and 1779. Two (James and John) were baptised in London, one (Ann) in Hatherleigh, the rest in Plymouth (Joseph, Arminell, William, Martha and a second Joseph).
  • Arminell, was buried 15 July 1788, St Andrew's Plymouth.
  • Joseph himself was buried 5 July 1808, St Andrew's Plymouth.
  • Joseph did NOT, I believe, have a middle name 'Elias' though most Ancestry etc Public Trees do use that. I believe the confusion is because his daughter, Arminell (1771-1853), married Joseph Elias Nodder (1772 - 1843).
Most trees record Joseph being born either in Launceston in 1735 or in Hatherleigh, Devon either in 1732 or 1736. However, I have not found any record of a christening for him in either place. I have looked in Ancestry and Family Search with no joy. Can any clever Devon Rootschatters succeed where I have failed?

Additional comments:
Many trees give 'our' Joseph's parents as Joseph Bounsall and Sarah. Several incorrectly identify this Sarah as Sarah Mortimore (born 1711). I am sure this is wrong because the marriage of Joseph Bounsall and Sarah Mortimore only took place 15 Sep 1789 in Plymouth, Charles i.e. several decades after 'our' Joseph was born, and indeed after his last child. I suspect, but cannot (yet) prove, that Sarah Mortimore is actually the second wife of 'our' Joseph. The marriage occurred just one year after his wife, Arminell, had died and left him with several young children, so for Joseph to remarry around that date would be unsurprising. Additionally, there are candidate Sarah Mortimore's born in Devon in the 1730s.

A few trees identify the mother of 'our' Joseph's mother as "Sarah Carpenter" born 1711 and dying, if several are to believed, in 1848, meaning she lived to be 137 years old. (There are clearly people even copy this rubbish into their trees!!!) In fact this Sarah as the wife of the youngest son of 'our' Joseph, also named Joseph. He married Sarah Carpenter (bapt. 29 Oct 1775 Maker, bur. 1843) on 28 Feb 1803 in Maker and they had at least three children.

Hence a subsidiary question, in addition to "When was 'our' Joseph Bounsall born?" is "Who were his parents?" Of course comments/criticism of the above 'facts' are welcome. Anything to help establish truth.

Thanks for reading.

Offline Jackiemh

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Re: When was Joseph Bounsall born? Prob in 1730s, poss. in Hatherleigh or Launceston
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 21 October 21 22:27 BST (UK) »
Hello, I am interested in the Bounsall family as a grand daughter of James Bounsall (1762-1840?) - Arminell married my gg grandfather Nathaniel Baylis.
I had put James' father as possibly Joseph Elias Bounsall b1736 Launceston but from your post, that is incorrect. I have found it difficult to get much information on this family but would be interested in sharing what I do have.
Jackie
Bateman, Baylis, Bellotti, Boag, Bower (Stillgebauer), Cattermole, Chester, Dullage, Felix, French, Fursse, Garrett, Gilbert, Harding, Haynes, Hazelwood, Plume, Putland, Rudge, Strickson, Vine, Warren, Whitehead, Whitehorn, Wiltshire, Youthed and many more

Offline amondg

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Re: When was Joseph Bounsall born? Prob in 1730s, poss. in Hatherleigh or Launceston
« Reply #2 on: Friday 22 October 21 02:05 BST (UK) »
Re: marriage to Sarah Mortimore 15 September 1789, it was by banns. Witnesses are Roger Blight and James Bounsal - all could write.

Image is on Family search.
It says Joseph Bounsal of this parish Taylor and Sarah Mortimore of this parish. No mention of any previous marital status.

The second signature is much neater than the first. Comparing the signature of his marriage to Arminell 1761.

Offline TadlowNewell

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Re: When was Joseph Bounsall born? Prob in 1730s, poss. in Hatherleigh or Launceston
« Reply #3 on: Friday 22 October 21 14:19 BST (UK) »
It is a very good idea to compare Joseph's signature on the two marriage records. I attach an image showing both for ease of comparison. I agree they are not identical. The 's' of Joseph is the biggest difference. However the surname spelling is the same and there is a similar gap between the U and N of Bounsall - in both cases it is written almost as two words. The fact the earlier signature had to be squeezed into a corner of the page doesn't help us!

I do still feel that this must be 'our' Joseph Bounsall in the second marriage, as it is the correct parish and the death of his wife Arminell, just a year or so earlier left him needing someone to care for his children. The 'James Bounsall' witness could well be his eldest son, who would have been 27 in 1789.

If it isn't 'our' Joseph, who else could it be? His father is too old, and his son too young. Maybe I can find out more about Sarah Mortimore. If we had a birth date/age for her that would help.

Let me know if you have any further ideas. esp. about Joseph's birth date/place.


Offline goldie61

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Re: When was Joseph Bounsall born? Prob in 1730s, poss. in Hatherleigh or Launceston
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 23 October 21 00:52 BST (UK) »
Reading through your post, I'm not sure what evidence there is for saying he was born in Launceston.
Do you have something prior to his marriage in London that places him somewhere other than Greenwich, which at this time was classed as Kent.

Have you seen the transcription on findmypast of Joseph Bounsall taking on an apprentice in 1786, where he is given as a master tailor of Plymouth? (Comes under the 'Education and Work' heading).
This transcription is from The Society of Genealogists , and held at The National Archives at Kew. It gives all the reference numbers to be able to get hold of it should you want to.
There is also a similar apprenticeship record in 1804 for a 'Josh' Bounsall at Maker, which is a place about 9 miles from Plymouth but just in Cornwall. He was a Cordwainer (shoemaker).
And also one for a James Bounsall in 1785, also a master tailor, also at Maker. (I wonder if this is your Joseph's son? Born in 1762, he would be 23 years old by 1785).

This would suggest that to become a 'master tailor', Joseph himself would have had an apprenticeship. Perhaps this was why he was in London?
There is a website 'londonroll', which has records of thousands of apprenticeship records.
https://www.londonroll.org/
I had a quick look, but there does not appear to be any soundex for variations of name, so you have to put in  all the different possibilities of Bounsall. I couldn't see Joseph but you may like to have a more thorough look. Don't worry about trying to pick a particular company he might have been in - I have found you didn't necessarily get an apprenticeship in the company of your trade. For example I have a dyer who was apprenticed in the Drapers' Company, and also workers on boats on the Thames who were also apprenticed to the Drapers' Company. Just pick 'all companies'.
Apprenticeships were usually for 7 years, more often than not started when the apprentice was about 14, and one of the conditions was that apprentices should not marry within that time.
(If James the master cordwainer in 1785 IS Joseph's son, there should be an apprenticeship record for him too somewhere.)

As your Joseph was married in 1761, one supposes he  was possibly about 22 years old by then, so born about 1739.

As you say, there do not seem to be any births on the usual sites.
There is an expectation that ancestry, findmypast and familysearch have all the records that exist.
This is of course not true, and sometimes we have to find other avenues to search.

There is a website, the Cornwall On-line Parish Clerk.
https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/
There are many listings for the Bounsall name (plus variations).

A Joseph Bounsal married Ann Ferris in 1720 at Launceston St Mary Magdelen.
They had several children baptised at the same church.
On 30 August 1721, a Joseph Bounsall was baptised, father Joseph, a weaver.
This child was then buried 13 August 1722.
Baptisms of several other children until another Joseph Bounsal, baptised 5 Nov 1737,  father 'Jos:', a weaver.
There is no corresponding burial for him as a child.
familysearch.org has the films of the Bishop's Transcripts which is viewable from home if you're signed in. They don't seem to have the ordinary registers for St Mary Magdelene's church, which is a bit odd. Perhaps none survive.
(Don't search 'records' on familysearch, but go to 'catalog', and put in the place name Launceston. Go down to 'church records', and then find the right film.)

Unless you know something else about him being from Cornwall, it's still not proof that this is the Joseph Bounsall you're looking for, though it looks a possibility.

Normally, the next course of action would be to search wills to see if you can join up the dots.
Unfortunately, most Devon (and Cornwall), wills were destroyed during the bombing of Exeter in WWII, as they were housed at the cathedral there.
There is a site of The Consolidated Wills Index for Devon and Cornwall
https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/
There are some Bounsall entries, but nothing that seems the right time for your Bounsalls. Plus many of these entries tell you there USED to be a will, but it is now missing, so I always find it a very frustrating site!
It's worth looking at though for information.
There ARE a few Bounsall wills on the Cornwall archives site https://kresenkernow.org/.
Can't see any that fit with yours, but you never know.
Have you searched this Cornwall site, or the Devon one at https://swheritage.org.uk/devon-archives/
for any information that might be held there about the family?






Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline amondg

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Re: When was Joseph Bounsall born? Prob in 1730s, poss. in Hatherleigh or Launceston
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 23 October 21 03:11 BST (UK) »
To follow Goldie 61.

Have you looked for wills, land records etc. for Amenall"s father James Angel or his wife whose maiden name was Walker.
Grandparents may mention grandchildren plus the married name of daughters.

These men were Tailors who must have had premises somewhere either owned or leased.

Personally I think James Bounsall who married Margaret Thomas 1784 in Maker Cornwall is the son of Joseph as he names a daughter Arminel Angel baptized 1793 in Maker, named after his grandmother. 

Offline goldie61

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Re: When was Joseph Bounsall born? Prob in 1730s, poss. in Hatherleigh or Launceston
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 23 October 21 04:40 BST (UK) »
I had a scoot around for any Angel wills when looking for the Bounsall ones amondg.
Same results. Some in Cornwall, but none that seem to fit, and most of those that were listed were now missing.
Wouldn't hurt for the original poster to do a more thorough search though.

I have been trying to find the Launceston connection which was vaguely mentioned in the original post, but no evidence why.

Cracked it!
There is an entry on Ancestry for the birth of Joseph's son in 1762,
It's listed as a non conformist or non parochial register, but it's not a birth register as such.
It's actually the register from the Holburn British Lying in Hospital Endell street.

'Armiel', wife of Joseph Bounsell, 'Taylor', was taken in on 5th June 1762. James was born in the 7th, and baptised on the 10th. She was discharged on the 26th June.
Under the heading for Arminall and Joseph's 'parish' it says Launceston, Cornwall (lovingly transcribed on Ancestry as 'Lanceston Cornwel' - mind you, it does look like 'Cornwel' in the register so we'll forgive them that one.)
So there we have the evidence that Joseph was from Launceston.
And so that baptism of Joseph Bounsal in 1737 looks like a very good fit.

By the way, I checked, and freereg.org.uk also have the transcripts of the Launceston bishop's transcripts. Although the burial of the Joseph as an infant in 1722 that was in the Cornwall On-line Parish Clerks listing, doesn't seem to be there.
The On-line Parish Clerk site also has other sorts of records you might like to look at Tadlow.
I found it an easier site than freereg because you have to flip backwards and forwards pages for each record on freereg, and on the On-line parish Clerk, it comes up as a list you can just scan down.

I don't know much about these 'Lying in Hospitals', but I suspect you had to pay to be admitted, indicating that Joseph was able to do that.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline TadlowNewell

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Re: When was Joseph Bounsall born? Prob in 1730s, poss. in Hatherleigh or Launceston
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 23 October 21 11:49 BST (UK) »
Dear Goldie and amondg

I feel like a dog who has just been thrown a whole bag of bones! Where do I start!
Thanks especially for noticing the mention of Launceston in the Greenwich Lying In hospital record. I have that document but missed that important link. There are a lot of Bounsalls in Launceston in the 18c records.

 I shall have to follow up all the pieces of evidence and tips etc and then I shall post here a summary of my conclusions 'for posterity'. Of course once you get back before the 1840s when census and official registration comes in nothing is ever certain, but you can get a sense of items fitting together or not.

I do know Amondg's suggestion of James Bounsall being Joseph's son is correct. JackieMH, who posted the first reply to my original post, is descended from that line and has documented it pretty well.

Thanks again everyone. I have posted several queries on here in recent years and always had a lot of helpful detailed, considered replies.

TaslowNewell