Author Topic: French marriage 1686  (Read 367 times)

Offline goldie61

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French marriage 1686
« on: Thursday 11 November 21 22:16 GMT (UK) »
This is supposedly the marriage of Claude Barthelemy Bertolle and Madelaine Duvivier in 1686, from a transcribed list of the thousands and thousands of births, marriages and deaths at Montreuil sur mer.

There is a document from 1735, in PAris, that lists a Claude Barthelemy Bertolle married to Madelaine Duvivier, but not when or where the marriage took place, although I do know they went to Paris from Montreuil sur mer.

I can see what appears to be 'Bertelemy Bertolle', and 'Madelaine du vivier'.
I'm finding it difficult to see that word before 'Barthelemy' as 'Claude'.  :-\
He seems to sign Bertaule?

I think it starts:
apres la publica(ci)on de bans de mariage ? bertelemy
bertolle de la pariosse de St lau   ?    ?
de ? et Madelaine de vivier de cette parroisse......


I'd be very grateful if anyone can fill in any of the blanks.
Thank you
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Online GR2

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #1 on: Friday 12 November 21 10:43 GMT (UK) »
I think the mystery word in the first line is entre = between.

Offline goldie61

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #2 on: Friday 12 November 21 20:27 GMT (UK) »
Thanks GR 2. You could well be right.

I wish I could make out what parish he was from. It doesn't look like any of the other churches in Montreuil, so it may give me a clue as to where he came from.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs


Offline Zefiro

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #3 on: Friday 12 November 21 21:08 GMT (UK) »
I think the groom came from Bodemont (it's clearly written in the margin), although I can't read the words following Saint Laurend. This city is now called Baudemont, (Département: Saône-et-Loire). If this is the correct place of origin, it means more than 600 km to Montreuil and 400 km to Paris.

There is a date in this document: the bans on 16th October 1685 and the marriage on 5th November 1685.

Apres la publica(ti)on des bans de mariage entre Bertelemy
Bertolle de la paroisse de S(ain)t Laurend
de Bodemont et Madelaine du Vivie de cette paroisse et
en operation de l'ordonnance par ... de mons(ieu)r
l'official d'... en datte du seizieme d'octobre
---
---
---signé le
cinquieme jour de novembre mil six cent quatre
vingt cinq

Offline goldie61

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #4 on: Friday 12 November 21 22:12 GMT (UK) »
Gosh thanks Zefiro.

The entry above it has been written, with  a lot in the margin, and then all crossed out, so it's difficult to see if Bartelemy's name is even mentioned in it.
I suppose it wasn't unheard of to travel - but 600 kms does seem quite a long way!
I wonder why he went to Montreuil sur mer. He is given as an 'innkeeper' a year later on his son's baptism.
There don't seem to be any Bertolle's prior to him in the Montreuil registers, but there is a big family of Du viviers. Perhaps he met Anne somewhere else, and they decided to go and live in Montreuil.
How interesting.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline Zefiro

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 13 November 21 14:15 GMT (UK) »
Can you post (or provide a link to) the crossed out entry?

Offline jayaygee

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 13 November 21 15:17 GMT (UK) »
I'm very intrigued by what comes between "St Laurend" and "de Bodemont" and also after "l'official" as I think there are other important clues as to the origin of Claude Bertaule, but, unfortunately I can't make much of it out.  I wonder what the "ordonnance" could be about too.

Looking at the "signatures", I think on the left there is the mark of Anne Daire (?) "mere de lad(ite)
espouzée".  Intrerestingly the priest seems to have called the bride Marguerite when indicating her mark!
BDF Twigg, Ellingham, Gates
BKM Bilbey, Collins, Brandon, Norwood, Smith
HAM Holloway (Romsey area)
HRT Brooks (Tring area)
LDN Saunders, Beedle
MDX Saunders
MLN Maitland, Robertson, McGlashan(all Edinburgh)
OXF Morby, Cross, Gardner (all Banbury area)
SAL Jones, Mathews, Higginson, Davies, Gobourn, Blount
WAR Pritchard (Birmingham)
WRY Dickinson, Atkinson, Mellon, Pritchard, Ashforth, Helliwell, Hague, Dungworth (all Sheffield area)

Offline jayaygee

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 13 November 21 16:10 GMT (UK) »
Zooming in on the entry on the AD 62 site:

https://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/v2/ad62/visualiseur/etat_civil.html?id=281695649

I think I can read "l'officlal d'amiens" but whether this is the place or the name of the Monseigneur I really don't know.

The crossed out entry above is a baptism unconnected to the marriage.
BDF Twigg, Ellingham, Gates
BKM Bilbey, Collins, Brandon, Norwood, Smith
HAM Holloway (Romsey area)
HRT Brooks (Tring area)
LDN Saunders, Beedle
MDX Saunders
MLN Maitland, Robertson, McGlashan(all Edinburgh)
OXF Morby, Cross, Gardner (all Banbury area)
SAL Jones, Mathews, Higginson, Davies, Gobourn, Blount
WAR Pritchard (Birmingham)
WRY Dickinson, Atkinson, Mellon, Pritchard, Ashforth, Helliwell, Hague, Dungworth (all Sheffield area)

Offline goldie61

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 13 November 21 20:42 GMT (UK) »
Thanks jayaygee, and the link to the register if anyone else wants to have a look. The link takes you to the first page of the film, and this marriage is on image 123 out of 1322.

Yes, it's very frustrating to not be able to decipher the information about Berthelemy.
I see the name 'Anne D'aire' also appears in the list of witnesses in the text, so that's a big help.
I knew her father was Francois Du vivier, but not her mother's name. I see a Francois Du vivier and a Louis(?) Du vivier also sign.
And yes! The priest has written 'Madelaine' in the body of the text, and 'Margueritte' for her to make her mark!
Other records I have give her as Madelaine, so I think he's just got a bit mixed up.

Maybe an 'ordonnance' was like a marriage licence?
it's all very perplexing!

The letters I can make out after 'St Laurend' are  '?n(?) almagn?e??sche
de ? et Madelaine.........'
Can you fill in any blanks or correct any of them?

Interestingly, it doesn't mention Berthelemy's name in the margin where it usually gives the name of the groom and the bride, but instead gives that 'de bodemont' and 'duvivier'.

Many thanks for your interest



Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs