Author Topic: DNA  (Read 2404 times)

Offline melba_schmelba

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,658
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: DNA
« Reply #27 on: Friday 31 December 21 11:45 GMT (UK) »
From the link I provided at reply#9:

Samples are generally collected from people with deep roots in a particular location. For some DNA ethnicity projects the requirement is that the individual should have four grandparents from the same country, region or county.

Only four grandparents? You can see how that might lead to some questionable “ethnicity” results related to those sample populations.  :)

and:
For example, if you are from Denmark and the company has no Danish samples, you will be matched to the next closest population.

You might find something along these lines happened with your Eastern European percentage LM.
I think that is how the official projects like People of the British Isles did it. Irish DNA Atlas is probably a bit more accurate as it uses eight great grandparents. I suspect 23andme has also used that general rule as I know they actively sought out sample from around the world in the last few years. But I think Ancestry gets a lot of their samples by sifting through family trees attached to DNA, and ditto MyHeritage. Given that MH has an even lower coverage treewise than Ancestry that may be part of the problem as to why MH's ethnicity %s are so unreliable.

Offline Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 57,138
    • View Profile
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

***Restorers - Please do not use my restores without my permission. Thanks***

Offline melba_schmelba

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,658
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: DNA
« Reply #29 on: Friday 31 December 21 12:19 GMT (UK) »
My Heritage's detailed account of how they determine ethnicity:

https://education.myheritage.com/article/the-founder-populations-project-how-myheritage-estimates-your-ethnicities/?ltopic=dna&lsort=recent&langitems=false

add

nd the link to explain why some ethnicities don't show:

https://education.myheritage.com/article/wheres-my-ethnicity-why-an-ethnicity-might-not-show-up-in-your-dna-and-how-to-find-evidence-of-it-anyway/
Thanks gadget. They say at least 6 generations, or up to 15 generations in the same region or group. I suppose that could just mean England & Wales/Scotland/Ireland. I wonder if they check the trees for accuracy? Whatever method they do use, it doesn't seem to be very successful as for nearly all the MH kits I have access to there are some very odd results, like significant %s of Eastern European or Spanish/Italian that shouldn't be there :o.

Offline Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 57,138
    • View Profile
Re: DNA
« Reply #30 on: Friday 31 December 21 13:15 GMT (UK) »
I did wonder about the trees  ::) 

The second link does explain why things could get mixed but I didn't read that one as 'fully'. I did read somewhere on the site that they also look at where current matches live. This would explain my high % of English (cf my Welsh/Scottish ancestors) - Greater London seems to be quite high. My close family all  live there  ;D ;D ;D

I'm really more interested in my matches, most of which seem to ring true.
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

***Restorers - Please do not use my restores without my permission. Thanks***


Offline phil57

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 644
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: DNA
« Reply #31 on: Friday 31 December 21 13:57 GMT (UK) »
Or, to paraphrase a professional contributor to a genealogical DNA textbook, "Admixture (ethnicity estimates) is the most eye-catching aspect of autosomal DNA testing. It is the feature companies highlight the most when advertising their products. For that reason many people test solely for the admixture results but, in reality, it is far less useful for genealogy than DNA match lists."

And several pages later:

"Admixture estimates vary between companies because they each use different reference populations. They are accurate to the continental level, but cannot be taken too literally at the country and regional levels. Be especially cautious with small percentages as these can be more likely to be erroneous." (My emphasis).

I read a paper on the ISOGG wiki some time ago, which showed that the "reference populations" being used by some testing companies in relation to certain regions can be as little as 20 people or fewer!

Small percentages "attached" to certain regions may not be indicative of any recent relatives originating from the region at all. It can simply mean that you have a trace indication matching a group of people who are also thought to originate from the same area, or who are most likely to be found in that area. 

I've also read that approximately half of the population of England have some Scottish, Irish or Welsh "ethnicity" in their admixture according to Ancestry, but it doesn't mean that their ancestors ever necessarily lived in those countries. A proportion of the people who settled in England also migrated here from the same regions as those who settled in Scotland, Ireland and Wales, and whose admixture can today be found in a majority of those populations, but the truth is just as likely to be that the Scottish, Irish or Welsh admixture is an indication that all of our ancestors from several hundred to 1000 years or further back in time were originally from the same region in continental Europe, and which e.g. Ancestry now ascribe to Scotland, Ireland and Wales as that is where the majority of that admixture in their current reference populations relates to.

Ancestry ascribe 22% and 16% of my admixture to Wales and Scotland respectively. LivingDNA, who are generally regarded as having the largest UK reference population (and therefore the most accurate admixture "guestimations" for the UK) ascribe 11.9% of my admixture to the Welsh borders, and nothing at all to Scotland or Ireland. They give me 3.9% northwest Germanic, which includes the southern Nordic region and is fairly consistent with my maternal haplogroup, which indicates ancient migration from that area into northern Germany and then to France and eventually the UK, albeit that is also supposition. Scientifically informed, but supposition nonetheless! The rest of my LivingDNA guestimate is English through and through!

From what I know of my ancestry through paper based research supported by DNA matches, I have absolutely no connections to Scotland, although my maternal grandmother's family originated from the Welsh borders. Having fair hair, blue eyes and pale skin that burns in front of a light bulb I have always thought of my ancestry as Nordic, probably Viking. That might be the case in the mists of time a few thousand years ago, but my maternal and paternal family names are both suggested to originate from the Normandy area in France, which does rather fit with the migration routes proposed for my maternal haplogroup (Russia->Scandinavia->Germany->France->England).

But then I could probably find theories to support any admixture estimate I was given by different testing companies if I looked hard enough. I prefer to use individual DNA matches to inform or support conclusions drawn from documented research. Admixture or ethnicity estimates are best taken for what they are - estimates - and mostly with a pinch of salt, since unless you have individual matches to MRCA's from those regions, they aren't really of much use for evidence based genealogical research anyway ;)
Stokes - London and Essex
Hodges - Somerset
Murden - Notts
Humphries/Humphreys from Montgomeryshire

Offline Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 57,138
    • View Profile
Re: DNA
« Reply #32 on: Friday 31 December 21 14:12 GMT (UK) »
Interesting, Phil. but as i said a few days ago:

Most of us are mostly concerned with our shared matches rather that just ethnicity but, if you are interested in this aspect, you should be aware that the ethnicity percentages are dependent upon the confidence level  that the particular company uses.  For example, Ancestry uses a fairly low confidence level. Thus, the 88% Welsh that Ancestry has estimated for me can range from 61% to 99%.

Also, as someone who studied Anthropology in my first degree, I am sceptical about the various definitions of ethnicity that are used. - for e.g What defines 'Welsh' - geography, culture or genetics  or ??

It's often really about selling kits/marketing
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

***Restorers - Please do not use my restores without my permission. Thanks***

Offline phil57

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 644
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: DNA
« Reply #33 on: Friday 31 December 21 14:28 GMT (UK) »
It's often really about selling kits/marketing

Agreed, although I would say "all" rather than "often" ;)

Marketing tests based solely on the genetic matching capabilities and the realisation that even confirming matches frequently involves a lot of additional research work by the kit owner to confirm the correct relationship, would drastically shrink their prospective customer base. 
Stokes - London and Essex
Hodges - Somerset
Murden - Notts
Humphries/Humphreys from Montgomeryshire

Offline Ruskie

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 26,198
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: DNA
« Reply #34 on: Friday 31 December 21 22:35 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for those links Gadget. Very interesting.

Excellent post Phil.

I just looked at my father’s ethnic estimate map - he has almost completely overlapping Baltic, Ashkenazi Jewish, and Eastern European. The majority of his matches are Jewish - usually living in Israel or the USA.

That seems to tally with Gadget’s experience that MH also consider where current matches live.

As My Heritage is an Israeli company I thought the test would be more popular there, hence the huge number of Jewish matches.   




Offline louisa maud

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,440
    • View Profile
Re: DNA
« Reply #35 on: Friday 31 December 21 22:43 GMT (UK) »
As  a  matter  of  interest  would  twins have the same DNA.

LM
Census information is Crown Copyright,
from  www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Granath Sweden and London
Garner, Marylebone Paddington  Northolt Ilford
Garner, Devon
Garner New Zealand
Maddieson
Parkinson St Pancras,
Jenkins Marylebone Paddington
Mizon/Mison/Myson Paddington
Tindal Marylebone Paddington
Tocock, (name changed to Ellis) London
Southam Marylebone, Paddington
Bragg Lambeth 1800's
Edermaniger(Maniger) Essex Kent Canada (Toronto)
Coveney Kent Lambeth
Sondes kent and London