Author Topic: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection  (Read 597 times)

Offline baz201

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Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« on: Wednesday 05 January 22 07:35 GMT (UK) »
The Anne Roberts mystery and the French connection

My great great grandmother was known as "Anne Roberts" when she married Henry Adams in Poplar London in abt Nov 1853. Henry's father, Jesse Adams had been in a Tile maker in Notting Hill, when Henry was born in 1834. see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=857000.0

The family appear on the 1871 census living in Islington St James, where she gives her name as "Anna" birthplace as "Burslem, Staffordshire"; and the 1881 census in Grove St. Islington, using the name "Emma" where she gives her birthplace as "Manchester". I tend to think Manchester more likely. On the 1871 census her mother Mary is living with them, giving her birthplace as "Preston" and age as 52. On the 1881 census, her sister Eliza is living with them and gives her birthplace as "Manchester" and age as 38. Both entires match the childrens names (Adolphus b. 1856, Eugenie b 1865, Beatrice b 1868, Arthur b 1870, Alexander b 1872 and Ernest b 1876) and the father Henry's occupation "Employee of City Prison"/"prison warder". They are not in the 1861 census as I was told that Islington is missing from that particular year.

I think this is likely a photo of Anne Adams taken ca 1870 in London:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=856746.0
It was in my grandmother's collection

When the family migrated to Australia on 7 Nov 1881 on the ship Northampton, she gave her place of origin as Lyons [sic] France, under the name "Anna". The husband and children's names and ages all match,except for the oldest son (Henry) Adolphus Adams who imigrated by himself and married in Sydney in 1881. There was a first born William Joseph Walter Adams b 1854, Strand (not on the 1871 census - he appears on the Portsmouth, Hampshire census as a "Boy 1st Class" in the Royal Navy on the ship "Exellent", who immigrated to Sydney in 1879 and married in Sydney that year.

Anna's New South Wales death records are as follows:
 ADAMS ANNA
12882/1900
father: JOHN
mother: MARY
reg: HURSTVILLE

There has always been a family story that Anne Roberts came from France and her family was in the pottery industry, and apparently Anne left for England after shouting out "Vive la roi!" during the 1848 revolutionary era in France and their family pottery shop got smashed up. but nobody knew anything further.

So, after I found the reference to Lyon in the immigration records, I began looking at the Rhône census records for surname "Robert" and found the following from the 1851 census:

Name:Marie Robert
Maiden Name: Helm
Gender:femme (Female)
Nationality:Anglaise
Marital Status:Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Age:36
Birth Date:abt 1815
Residence Date:1851
Street Address:Rue de Landine
Residence Place:Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation:Journalier (Day Laborer/Journeyman)
Relationship:
Épouse (Wife)

Jean Robert 45 (Head) - occupation: Journalier (Anglais)
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife) (Anglaise)
Eliza Robert 17 (Anglaise)
Jean Robert 11 (Français)
Joseph Robert 3 (Français)

This would appear to be Anne/Anna's family still living there in 1851. I went through all the Robert's in Rhône on the census forms and this was the only one that was described as "Anglaise".
The only thing that was wrong was that the dates of birth didn't match the ones on the English census forms for Marie (Mary) and Eliza. Most French women appeared to use the name 'Elise' or 'Elisabeth' and "Eliza" was far less common, I found when looking through the records. So again, I thought this pointed to the correct family. However, Anne had already departed by this stage.

UK 1871 Census has Mary's date of birth as 1819; Lyon 1851 census has her date of birth as 1815
UK 1881 census has Eliza's date of birth as 1843; Lyon 1851 census has her date of birth as 1834

in the 1856 Rhône census I found the younger son again 5 years later:
Name:Jean Joseph Robert
Gender:homme (Male)
Marital Status:Garçon
Age:8
Birth Date:abt 1848
Residence Date:1856
Residence Place:Oullins, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation:Fobricant de Porcelainier (Porcelain maker)


that was the clue to link the family back to the pottery industry.

So, with the maiden name "Helm" and the birthplace "Preston" I started looking and found the following:

Name
Mary Helm
Baptism Date 27 Mar 1814
Parish Ribchester, Lancashire, England (a village about 12 miles from Preston)


There are a also number of other Mary Helm' s born in the villages of Paidham and Garstang around the same time.

I found what I think may be Anne's baptism:

Agnes Robertson
Gender:Female
Birth Date:15 Jan 1835
Baptism Date:17 May 1835
Baptism Place:Mosley Street Removed From Cannon Street, Independent, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Father:John Robertson
Mother:Mary

Is this the correct Ann Roberts, given that I've found 'Agnes' used for 'Anne/Ann' elsewhere in my family tree in the 1830s?

The parents' (John & Mary's) marriage remain a mystery. Eliza's birth remains a mystery, I haven't pinned down Mary Helm's exact date of birth, as there are a number of hits around the same time near Preston for 'Mary Helm' and lastly John Roberts/Robertson (b according to the Lyon census abt 1806). I assume he was also born in Lancs. He may well also have grown up with a family in the pottery industry.

Any help appreciated!

Offline rosie99

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 05 January 22 08:33 GMT (UK) »
The Anne Roberts mystery and the French connection
The family appear on the 1871 census living in Islington St James, ...........

They are not in the 1861 census as I was told that Islington is missing from that particular year.

They are not living in the Islington area in 1861 according to birth registrations of the children,
Adolphus is listed as being born in Marylebone c1858 and the other childrens births were all registered in the Marylebone registration district Arthurs being in March qtr 1870 they only appear to have moved to Islington after Arthurs birth. 


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Offline garstonite

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 05 January 22 09:00 GMT (UK) »
although baptised Ribchester - they lived in DUTTON = 13 miles from Preston

Baptism: 27 Mar 1814 St Wilfrid, Ribchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Helme - [Child] of Elizabeth Helme
    Abode: Dutton
    Occupation: Weaver
    Baptised by: H Cardwell
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford


Offline baz201

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 05 January 22 09:51 GMT (UK) »
The Anne Roberts mystery and the French connection
The family appear on the 1871 census living in Islington St James, ...........

They are not in the 1861 census as I was told that Islington is missing from that particular year.

They are not living in the Islington area in 1861 according to birth registrations of the children,
Adolphus is listed as being born in Marylebone c1858 and the other childrens births were all registered in the Marylebone registration district Arthurs being in March qtr 1870 they only appear to have moved to Islington after Arthurs birth.

Hi again Rosie,

Where were living in 1861 in that case? :)

The only one that may be them I could find is: 16 Pancras St, St Pancras, Middlesex. Ann is known as Mary-Ann and listed as dressmaker. Henry is a Gas fitter/laborer

Is that them do you think?

cheers
Barry

Offline baz201

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 05 January 22 11:27 GMT (UK) »
although baptised Ribchester - they lived in DUTTON = 13 miles from Preston

Baptism: 27 Mar 1814 St Wilfrid, Ribchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Helme - [Child] of Elizabeth Helme
    Abode: Dutton
    Occupation: Weaver
    Baptised by: H Cardwell

Thankyou Garstonite,

Given that we don't know if she was born in 1815 or 1819 (and I've found people tend to be inaccurate sometimes on census forms from one form in one year to another), I've made the following lists of Mary Helm/Helme b 1804-1824 in Lancs. from ancestry hits (pls forgive this Australian's ignorance of Lancashire geography):

MARY HELM b Lancs 1804-1824

Mary Helm bap 4 Nov 1804 Ribchester, Lancs
Mary-Ann Helm Baptism 20 Aug 1805 Padiham, Lancs
Mary Helm b 29 Jan 1805 Balderstone, Lancs
Mary Elisabeth Helm bap 15 Mar 1807 Padiham Lancs
Mary Helm bap 20 Sep 1807 Padiham, Lancs
Mary Helm bap 27 Mar 1808 Garstang Lancs
Mary Helm bap 15 Mar 1809 Padiham, Lancs
Mary Helm bap 30 Jun 1811 Manchester
Mary Helm b 29 Nov 1811 Garstang, Lancs
Mary Helm bap 22 Dec 1811, Garstang, Lancs
Mary Helm b 1814 Ribchester Lancs
Mary Ann Helm bap 10 Nov 1816 Cockerham, Lancs
Mary Helm b  7 May 1817 Padiham Lancs
Hary Helm b 3 Jan 1818 Higham, Lancs
Mary Helm b 23 Jan 1819 Padiham Lancs.jpg
Mary Helm b 23 Jan 1819 Padiham Lancs
Mary Helm b 23 Jan 1820, Padiham, Lancs
Mary Helm bap 5 Nov 1820 Kirkham, Lancs
Mary Helm b 27 Jan 1823 Woodplumpton, Lancs
Mary Constantia Helm bap 26 Feb 1824, Manchester
Mary Helm b 9 Apr 1824 Padiham, Lancs

Mary HELME

Mary Helme bap 4 Nov 1804 Longridge, Lancs
Mary Helme bap 24 Jun 1805 Cockerham, Lancs
Mary Helme b 23 Jun 1807 Warton near Lancaster, Lancs
Mary Helme bap 18 Feb 1809 Saint John, Preston, Lancs
Mary Helme b 4 Mar 1810, Saint Mary, Lancaster, Lancs
Mary Helme 5 Jan 1816 Turton, Lancs
Mary Helme bap 14 May 1820 Over Wyresdale, Lancs
Mary Helme bap 15 Jun 1823 Kirkham, Lancs
Mary Helme bap 15 Jun 1823 Hambleton, Lancs

also:

Mary Helm bap 15 Jul 1821 St Luke, Chelsea, Kensington and Chelsea
given the connection to the area with Henry Adams & his father Jesse


Offline rosie99

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 05 January 22 11:32 GMT (UK) »
By 1861 they should have William J W Adams and Adolphus living with them
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Offline baz201

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 05 January 22 11:56 GMT (UK) »
By 1861 they should have William J W Adams and Adolphus living with them

Cannot find them, using "adolphus" with Henry living in London on the findmypast search engine. They must have been in Islington, where the census forms are missing, like you said. He was known as Adolphus in the 1871 census form and not henry.
This was 60 or 70 years before the name became infamous!

Offline rosie99

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 05 January 22 14:05 GMT (UK) »

1851 France
Jean Robert 45 (Head) - occupation: Journalier
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife)
Eliza Robert 17
Jean Robert 11
Joseph Robert 3


Could this be Jean in 1861, London
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r5j/

Also 1861
Possibly Mother Marie a widow at 10 Chandos St, Strand
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r5k/
Same occupation as in later census


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Offline rosie99

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 05 January 22 16:10 GMT (UK) »
The Anne Roberts mystery and the French connection


in the 1856 Rhône census I found the younger son again 5 years later:
Name:Jean Joseph Robert
Gender:homme (Male)
Marital Status:Garçon
Age:8
Birth Date:abt 1848
Residence Date:1856
Residence Place:Oullins, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation:Fobricant de Porcelainier (Porcelain maker)


Could you please give the details of all in the household for that 1856 entry.
....

Who was Alexander Robert, the godfather to Adolphus

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