BRICK WALL - Please Help! (William James England)

[LenaGarner]

Hitting a brick wall with my great grandfather, William James England and would appreciate a fresh pair of eyes!

Here's what I know so far:
Born 1888-1890 I have lot's of verified documents for him that all give conflicting ages/DOB
- 1911 census aged 21 (1890?)
- Married my gt grandmother Lily aged 26 (1890)
- 19/07/1918 Army discharge papers age 29 years 3 months (April 1889?)
- 1921 census aged 32 years 9 months (Sept 1888)
- 1924 died aged 34 (1890)
 
All of these documents are 100% him, I have been researching him for over a year and know that the people/places match accurately - but his DOB and even year of birth are conflicting.

Other info:
1911 census he was in Bishop Monkton North Yorkshire where he worked with his soon to be wife, Lily.  His place of birth is recorded as 'Summersetshire'

1916 - Married gt grandmother Lily Banks in Ingleton, North Yorkshire -  William's Father is listed as Thomas England  (a coal miner). Lily's father also present.  I have purchased this record so know it is correct.

Army discharge papers have him discharged on 19/07/1918 at the age of 29 years and 3 months.  He was discharged due to Bronchitis aggravated by military service from which he died in 1924.


1919 - He and Lily had their first child - My great uncle Thomas William
1920 - He and Lily had a daughter, Doris (My nana)

1921 - Census! Living in Rainton with Lily and their two children, Thomas and Doris. This census says he was born in London!  No other info on there really other than he was doing light farm work part time.

1923 - He and Lily have their 3rd child, my great uncle Oswell.

9th Feb 1924 - died in Ripon North Yorkshire aged 34.

 
What I really need is a birth record - I have searched through hundreds with no luck.  Not sure if he was born in Somerset as the 1911 census suggests or in London as the 1921 census suggests.  I have traced every William England I can but the trail always goes cold.  I have no leads whatsoever for a mothers name and only know his father is named Thomas England ( coal miner) as I purchased William and Lily's marriage certificate.  As I said all info above I know is correct.  He has a brother listed on his death certificate - both from GRO and Army that states his brother either T or J England (i think T - maybe for Thomas after his father) who lives in Pickhill, Thirsk is the informant and was present at his death.   I have tried searching for him in surrounding areas on the census with no avail also.

Any help would be much appreciated! I was really hoping the 1921 census would shed some light but its just added another twist!
Thanks in advance!

[sgf28]

There is a Thomas England born 1896 on 1939 Register living at Wath, a possible brother for William

[rosie99]

Lengthy post on William James England
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=839354.0

[LenaGarner]

Thanks Rosie, that post was mine from a couple of years ago. I couldn’t find it to post on there. Thank you

[jinks]

Bit of a long shot but have you discounted

ENGLAND, WILLIAM  JAMES     LAWRENCE 
GRO Reference: 1892  D Quarter in PANCRAS  Volume 01B  Page 79

The age is out 

But Family has links to Somerset and London
There's also a brother Thomas who I haven't followed yet, he was born in Monmouth, Monmouthshire.

The Father's Occupation isn't consistent  In 1891 and 1901 He is listed as a Carpenter and 1911 as
Horseman working on a farm.

Both William James and Thomas are not with the family on the 1911 Census

[LenaGarner]

Jinks- this is what I have literally spent my whole day doing! I think it’s this family too. Discounted them previously due to the date being so far out but it must be him. I just don’t think he knew how old he was 🤣 he didn’t even have a consistent birth month with the records I know are correct so think he was just making it up.  It seems like he was actually only 18 when he went to work on the farm in 1911 instead of 21. Would this have been likely for him to lie? Wasn’t sure if he would have needed to as they surely would have employed him at 18.


I was also concerned about the disparity in father Thomas’s jobs but it makes sense with them moving around. Just found a record for him being enlisted in the Royal Monmouthshire Engineers in 1895 too. I paid for the 1921 census and Thomas, Mary, son Robert and Thomas (one who signed Williams death certificate perhaps? and Daughter Susan are still living in Darlington (close to where William and Lily live) so I think this also is a good sign!

[LenaGarner]

The other thing with dad’s occupation was that he’s listed as carpenter, farm worker and then on Williams marriage certificate in 1916 he’s a coal miner. Am I right in thinking he may have just been moving around looking for work? He may have been a coal miner in Wales?

[jinks]

wow how weird, we were both looking at the same family!! 

I think I've located Alice in 1911 working as a Cook in Wimbledon her place of Birth is Barnet, Middlesex, looks like Beatrice dies young.

And theres a possible for Thomas in 1911 Birth place given as Believe and be Wales working in  Clayton with Frickley, Yorkshire, England, United Kingdom.