John Cramp 1762 - 1809

[agray1949]

Hi all,
I wonder if anyone can give me some advice regarding John Cramp & his children
The information I have at present is that he was born about 1762 & died in 1809.
There were 4 children. Ann 1788 - 1841, John 1790 - 1854, Elizabeth 1792 - 1841, Mary 1797 - ?
I have the baptism records for all 4 children & they were all described as son/daughter of John Cramp & Elizabeth. High Street, Whitechapel, Middlesex & the baptisms were at St. Mary, Whitechapel

John Cramp (snr) (butcher) died in 1809 & left a will which I have mostly transcribed.
He left most of his estate to his son John when he reached 21 years of age, which ties in with the baptism of John in 1790. His wife Elizabeth was to take care of the estate until such time.
He also left £500 each to his daughter Elizabeth & daughter in law Ann, to be given to them when they got married. There is no mention of Mary so I assume she has died as a child before 1809.
Does the term daughter in law possibly mean step daughter because I am sure the Ann described was not married & married William Edward Jury in 1812 & one of the witnesses was Elizabeth Cramp.

Ancestry shows 2 marriages for a John Cramp in 1783 to Elizabeth Badham at St. Botolph without Aldersgate & later Elizabeth Hyde in 1787 at St. James Clerkenwell. John was described as a widower when he married in 1787.
There was also a burial for Elizabeth Cramp in 1785 at St. Leonards, Shoreditch, Hackney.
Could these be connected. The locations concern me & I don't fully trust other trees.

I have also found a marriage in 1800 at St. Mary, Whitechapel between John Cramp (widower) & Elizabeth Cramp (widow). They were both of this parish.

Could the children have been baptised before they married as the record just says John Cramp &  Elizabeth (not wife Elizabeth)
What about the baptism of Ann if she was a step daughter.

[horselydown86]

Does the term daughter in law possibly mean step daughter because I am sure the Ann described was not married & married William Edward Jury in 1812 & one of the witnesses was Elizabeth Cramp.

I haven't looked at the whole of what you have posted but did look into this Ann.

Daughter in law certainly can mean stepdaughter in this period.  It suggests that John Cramp's wife at the time of his making the will was previously married to a Cramp and had Ann before her marriage to John.

That points you straight towards the marriage at St Mary Whitechapel in 1800.  I would make this your research priority.

Do some work on the witnesses in 1800 - Thomas Cramp and Ann Organ.  Look for their marriages and see who else was there.  Also check through Cramp and Organ wills.

The 1800 marriage was by licence, so there would have been a corresponding Marriage Allegation and Bond.  The Allegation in particular might give you an occupation for the groom.

Unfortunately I can't find these records in the London and Surrey, England, Marriage Bonds and Allegations, 1597-1921 collection on Ancestry.  They may be in other collections of Marriage Bonds.

Otherwise, if you can find a marriage for the daughter Elizabeth, you can compare her signature against the witness to the Jury - Cramp marriage.

I did glance at a tree for William Jury, just because it came up on the search for his marriage.  This tree simply took his wife to be the daughter of the John Cramp of the 1809 will - ignoring the wording of the will.

[agray1949]

The Elizabeth Cramp who was a witness at the marriage between William Edward Jury & Ann Cramp in 1812 later married Edmund Thomas Jury in 1828 at St. Faith under St. Paul, London. She was a spinster of the parish of St. Mary, Whitechapel & her signature looks very similar in both records (allowing for a 10 year gap). One of the witnesses at her marriage was John Cramp (brother I think)
William Edward Jury & Edmund Thomas Jury were brothers, so keeping it in the families.
If Ann was the daughter of John's (snr) wife before they married then why would he call her his daughter on the baptism record.
I really thought that when I found John's will in 1809 it was going to confirm my findings but all it has done is cause even more confusion.

[horselydown86]

If Ann was the daughter of John's (snr) wife before they married then why would he call her his daughter on the baptism record.

Is the Ann Cramp in the baptism record the same person as the Ann Cramp in the will?

Is the mother Elizabeth in the baptism record the same person as Elizabeth, wife of John Cramp, in the will?

The John Cramp (widower) to Elizabeth Cramp (widow) marriage in 1800 is consistent with the wording in John Cramp's will and with the description of Ann Cramp as a spinster when she married William Jury.

More research may eliminate the confusion and give you a sound set of findings.

[agray1949]

I am as sure as I can be that the Ann in the Baptism is the same person as the Ann in the will. The confusion arose when she was described as daughter in law in the will on several occasions.
I am sure that the Elizabeth in the baptism records is the same as that in the will but cannot be absolutely certain, hence the possible 3 marriages. Elizabeth Badham 1783, Elizabeth Hyde 1787 & Elizabeth Cramp 1800.

I have also compared the signatures for the Cramp & Jury marriages against the Cramp & Cramp marriage & I think the Cramp & Cramp version is different to the other 2.

Would the baptisms be allowed if the parents were not married.

If Ann was the daughter of Elizabeth's first marriage then why would she be called John's daughter on the baptism record.

I will need to try & find out who Elizabeth (widow) was married to & what her maiden name was.

[horselydown86]

Burial at St Mary Whitechapel on 16 April 1788 of Ann Cramp of High Street.  She was two months old and died of Convulsions.

Burial at St Mary Whitechapel on 29 July 1798 of Elizabeth Cramp of High Street.  She was aged forty-four and died on her childbed.

[agray1949]

Wow,
Thanks for this bit of information about Ann & Elizabeth.
This could make sense of the will relating to Ann as the daughter in law (step daughter)
I must admit that I was slightly curios when reading the will that Elizabeth was mentioned before Ann as I would have thought the eldest born daughter would have been named first.
I still think the Ann named in the will is the one who married William Edward Jury in 1812, but who were her parents ?
The Elizabeth who died in 1798 would link in nicely with John being a widower in 1800 when he married Elizabeth Cramp. (I do wish they had used different names other than John & Elizabeth).

How have you managed to get the information about the 2 deaths Ann & Elizabeth. I saw them on Family search but could not view the documents. Ann's one came up on Ancestry but only gave her age & not what she died from.

I think I need to take some lessons on finding old records prior to 1840.

[horselydown86]

How have you managed to get the information about the 2 deaths Ann & Elizabeth.

With today's Ancestry I almost never do general searches.

This is Whitechapel pre-1812 so I know that the burials will be in the All London, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812 collection.  I start from that collection's search page.

To reduce the results further I put "whitechapel" in the Keyword box and tick "Exact".

Then it is just a matter of putting in the surname and date ranges to cover the period of interest.

My strategy with Ancestry is to reduce the volume of results.  One can always remove the restrictions if nothing of value is found.

In this case the right results came straight away.

[agray1949]

So if I accept that the Ann who died aged 2 months in High Street Whitechapel was the Ann baptised 7th March 1788 is correct (& it does seem pretty convincing), then I need to find another Ann Cramp who was married to William Edward Jury.
She died in 1841 aged 53 according to the burial record which again takes me back to 1788.
She possibly was the daughter of Elizabeth who  had a child from a previous marriage to another Cramp.
The 2 marriages which I have for John in 1783 & 1787 are still doubtful but possible & then he married another Elizabeth in 1800.
The Elizabeth who died in 1798 could have been the 1787 marriage & the Elizabeth who married in 1800 was the one mentioned in the will.
I wonder how many Cramp's there were living in Whitechapel at the time & more interestingly in High Street.
I suppose I will now have to change my tree to reflect the death of Ann in 1788.