CARR/SAYER /MOORE

[soclaxpm]

I have posted on  this forum many years ago So I apologize if this is a repeat but trying to find out more  information ...  I have made some progress but still hitting a brick wall.
My grandfathers sister was Florence  Annie Sayer born   1895 Aysgarth Yorkshire  ( we did not know my grandfather had a sister till after his death )
In 1909   their father dies and  the mother  marries  HARRY M CARR of Lincolnshire
In  1917 Florence is charged with stealing by her employer and her mother, is sentenced to 12 months   Florence is released  on or about  April 1918... family is living in Ulceby   
June of 1918 her mother passes away and  less than 3 weeks later  Florence  marries her  step father ( i have the marriage certificate  )     I found out there was several children who I assumed were morn to Florence under an alias Alice Moore   from 1920-1929    no  father mentioned    ( Assumed that because it was against the law to marry your step father this is why everything was kept secret )      According to a grandchild of  Florence and Harry  she was always known as Alice    and her "sister Asenath " lived with them .     On the 1921 Census  Harry is  there with my grandfather  ( step son ) Harry is married, in the house Alice Moore  Born  immingham  house keeper  with two of the children.    No sign of a Florence Annie Sayer (s)       In 1939   Harry is present and now with his wife Florence A sayer    Date of birth is that of my  grandfathers  sister  she is  listed as mother to the children.  ( No Alice Moore located )       Florence dies in  1957 ( I have the death certificate) in Scunthorpe the death is recorded by her son John Gordon Carr     ( Gordon was the middle name of one of her siblings that were killed in WWI)  The name is now Florence Alice  Carr     (in 1931 a Child was born to Florence A Sayers  in Glandford Brings   he died  shortly after birth   father Harry M Carr  have the certificate)    I am wondering what could have happened to Florence for 10 years  ..... Could she have taken Asenath sisters name ?  IF not  what could have happened ?  back in Prison ?     Thank you for reading and theory appreciated   

[Ladyhawk]

On the 1921 Census  Harry is  there with my grandfather  ( step son )
Harry is married, in the house Alice Moore  Born  immingham house keeper 
with two of the children.   
No sign of a Florence Annie Sayer (s) 

What age is Alice Moore in 1921 there is this Alice born Immingham? Is she the same person?

1901 Piece:   3097
Folio:   96
Page Number:   3
John Edward Moore   42
Asenath May Moore   41
Alice Moore   9
John Edwin Moore   7
Asenath May Moore   1
She is with parents 1911

[soclaxpm]

Yes  that is Alice  sister of Asenath who lived apparently in the same house for a few years .
Its all very confusing   ... as I mentioned  is Alice is truly Alice Moore    where was Florence between 1920-1930     Florence had a child by Harry in 1931  and In 1939 she is mentioned again
I know this is the correct CARR family as the address all match up to items in an old address book

Thank you for replying

[Ladyhawk]

I have posted on  this forum many years ago So I apologize if this is a repeat but trying to find out more  information ...  I have made some progress but still hitting a brick wall.

I’ve added the links to your previous posts for anyone else looking

2014 post Florence Annie Sayer/Alice Moore

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=682940.msg5273788#msg5273788

2013 post Carr family

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=659388.0

My grandfathers sister was Florence  Annie Sayer born 1895 Aysgarth Yorkshire 
( we did not know my grandfather had a sister till after his death )

In 1909  their father dies and  the mother  marries  HARRY M CARR of Lincolnshire

For ref. your Florence born with her parents 1901

1901 Piece:   4405
Folio:   39
Page Number:   8
Emmanuel Thomas Sayer   35
Sarah Sayer   36
Lionel Percy Sayer   8
Florence Annie Sayer   6 Aysgarth, Yorkshire
Alexander Gordon Robson Sayer   4
and she’s with her mother, 2 siblings and stepfather Harry M Carr 1911

In  1917 Florence is charged with stealing by her employer and her mother, is sentenced to 12 months Florence is released on or about  April 1918... family is living in Ulceby   

June of 1918 her mother passes away and less than 3 weeks later Florence marries her  step father ( i have the marriage certificate  )   

 In 1939   Harry is present and now with his wife Florence A sayer   Date of birth is that of my  grandfathers  sister   she is  listed as mother to the children.  ( No Alice Moore located )       

Florence dies in  1957 ( I have the death certificate) in Scunthorpe the death is recorded by her son John Gordon Carr  ( Gordon was the middle name of one of her siblings that were killed in WWI)  The name is now Florence Alice  Carr  (in 1931 a Child was born to Florence A Sayers  in Glandford Brings  he died  shortly after birth  father Harry M Carr  have the certificate)   

I am wondering what could have happened to Florence for 10 years..... Could she have taken Asenath sisters name ? 

IF not  what could have happened ?  back in Prison ?     

Have you checked Electoral Registers for those 10 years to see if she’s with Harry M Carr ?

You mentioned the Alice Moore on 1921 census - What is her marital status?

Is this correct?
Ethel M is MOORE on 1921 & CARR on 1939 born 1921,
her birth is registered as MOORE (no mother's maiden name) and she dies in 1993
Ethel Margaret CARR born 18 5 1921

(edit to add looking over your other thread I see she is mentioned along with other Moore children)

It certainly is a complicated family......
for anyone else looking to help see reply 29 on the Carr thread link
for list of all the Moore children with mmn Moore

I'd also found this entry he's also mentioned but not sure if this was posted - for info.

Wilfred Burton SAYER born 11 Nov 1901
Parent or Guardian’s name(s) Harry M CARR, North End Keebly
Keelby Primary School last School attended Oxford Place W. ?
Event year 13 1 1914 leaving date 29 4 1914
Record set National School Admission Registers & Log-Books 1870-1914

[soclaxpm]

"Have you checked Electoral Registers for those 10 years to see if she’s with Harry M Carr ?"
Thank you i never thought of that  I will  take a look.

"You mentioned the Alice Moore on 1921 census - What is her marital status?"     Alives marital status  on the census is single   born Lincolnshire
Children registered to Alice Moore    Edwin Wilfred   ( wilfred was my grandfathers name)  Ethel Margaret , John Gordon,  ( Gordon is the middle name of my grandfathers brother who was killed in WWI)   Peter Mervyn,  Diane Mary , Edith Alice,  Noel Emile   Then a son was born  Albert Henry  he is registered to Florence Sayers  as the mother  Harry  as the father 

Thank you for your time

[Ladyhawk]

"You mentioned the Alice Moore on 1921 census - What is her marital status?"     

Alives marital status  on the census is single   born Lincolnshire

Children registered to Alice Moore   

Edwin Wilfred   ( wilfred was my grandfathers name) 
Ethel Margaret ,
John Gordon,  ( Gordon is the middle name of my grandfathers brother who was killed in WWI)   
Peter Mervyn, 
Diane Mary ,
Edith Alice, 
Noel Emile   

Then a son was born  Albert Henry  he is registered to Florence Sayers as the mother  Harry  as the father 

It is a complicated family........

Have I read your other thread correctly and you have the birth certificates of the above children and their mother is named Alice MOORE of Ulceby and their father Harry M CARR?
 EDIT I see from your reply 36 (Carr thread) there is NO father named on the birth certificate

Who was the informant on the birth certificates?

Is it possible that all the MOORE children are the children of Alice MOORE born c1891 Immingham dau of John & Asenath Mary (nee Robinson) and there was a possible breakdown of the marriage of Harry M Carr & Florence Annie nee Sayer 

Have you traced Alice Moore born c1891 Immingham to eliminate her ?
Did she marry, when did she die?

added - Alice MOORE is definitely not with her parents and sister on latest census they are in Grimsby Lincolnshire John Edward MOORE (1859), Aseneth Mary (1859) and Asenath Mary (1900)

[Ladyhawk]

On the Carr Thread (reply 36) - you mention you found an Alice & Asenath Moore on the 1911 census for Ulceby and you asked the question
“Were Alice & Florence the same person?”
“ Maybe not”
If not, what is their relationship?

I'd agree they are different persons - you have found Florence A Sayer with her parents/step father on 1901 & 1911c and also Alice Moore with her parents 1901 & 1911 both have birth registrations confirming their mmn

Florence Annie SAYER mmn ROBSON
GRO Reference: 1895  M Quarter in AYSGARTH  Volume 09D  Page 675
her dob  2 Mar 1898 (1939)   

Alice MOORE mmn ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in CAISTOR  Volume 07A  Page 665   

EDIT to add - I thought could there be a mistake with their mmn and that may have been the connection

When their mother's married they have different fathers name

Sarah Robson age 24
Marriage 19 Apr 1890 Newport St Woolos, Monmouthshire, Wales
Father:   Henry Robson
Spouse:   Emmanuel Thomas Sayer

Asenath Mary Robinson age 27
Marriage 15 Jun 1887 St.James Church, Great Grimsby
Father:   Edwin Robinson
Spouse:   John Edward Moore

[soclaxpm]

I agree they are probably different people .  What happened to Florence  in the 10 years  when Alice was having Harrys Children ?
Florence came back had a Child  who died
Alice disappears
Florence on her death certificate is registered as Florence Alice Carr  wife of Harry M Carr   person reporting death her son John Carr
Foot note  I have a vague memory of  the grand daughter in law   saying that the  Children did not believe their parents ever married
I may never know what happened  ......
I appreciate your input thank you

[soclaxpm]

Only found Harry in 1935 at  4 a First Ave Grimsby      ( Correct address as  that is the last known address of the family  .... Noel the last child lived there till 2016   )