Expert on Scottish maps needed

[goldie61]

I’m trying to find out when a property called Stobieside first appears.
It is very close to the site of the Battle of Drumclog in 1679,  just over the Lanarkshire border from Ayrshire.
I have lots of information about it after the mid 1700s, but not before.

I’ve looked on NLS, but I would be the first to admit this is not my strongest suit!
The first mention I can find of it on a map is 1816 on William Forest’s map of Lanarkshire.
Roys military map circa 1750 doesn’t show it, but then it doesn’t even show the Battle of Drumclog site. I’m aware there are omissions on the Roys map.
It’s certainly not on Blair’s Atlas of 1654.

I have various records for  my ancestors being at Stobieside, (Stobbyside, Stabyside etc) from  1751. Some say ‘of’ and some say ‘proprietor’.

Does NLS have all the old maps sewn up? or are there any other sites to try?

Is there an expert on Scottish maps who can find it before 1816?

Thanks for any help. 

[Ruskie]

It’s not much earlier than 1816, but have you looked on the Roy Lowlands 1752-55 map? There is quite a lot of detail:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14.72690341101467&lat=55.62373&lon=-4.15641&layers=4&b=1

I found a couple of places with Drumclogg in the name but couldn’t spot Stobieside or similar, though I  may not have been looking in the right place. 

[goldie61]

Thanks Ruskie.
Yes, I mentioned Roy's map on my post.
Stobieside is not there as you found, but then neither is The Battle of Drumclog marked, which you'd think it would be. It was a very significant event around there.
There are a couple of Drumclog farms marked though as you say. Stobieside should be just North West of them. The neighbouring farm. Very close.
It's now the site of a big fancy place built in the late 1800s - not by my ancestors I hasten to add - they had long since sold it on.

My guess is this was just a fraction too early for it to get onto this map series.

[Flattybasher9]

A wee snippet of info, but no dates.

https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/200331809-stobieside-avondale

Malky

[Ruskie]

Yes, the NLS seem to have all maps don’t they:
https://maps.nls.uk/scotland/

There’s not enough detail in most of them.

I realise you’d mentioned Roy maps but wasn’t sure if you’d seen the Lowland one. It is frustrating because it looks detailed enough to have Stobyside marked.

I will look later to see if I have any other maps in my favourites on my PC.

Hopefully one of the Scottish experts will step in and help you.

[goldie61]

A wee snippet of info, but no dates.

https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/200331809-stobieside-avondale

Malky

Thanks Malky
As you say, no dates. This is a listing for the Victorian fairly grand house that is there now.
The original would have been just a simple farmstead.

[Forfarian]

http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NS622398 - it is in the parish of Avondale.

It is, as mentioned, a Category B Listed building
http://portal.historicenvironment.scot/designation/LB1289 - the information on the 'British Listed Buildings' web site is mirrored from this source, Historic Environment Scotland, which is the agency that decides what is and is not listed.

It's not on Charles Ross' map about 1773 https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400268 but it is on William Forrest's map about 1816 https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400273.

The 1855 Valuation Roll at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk lists William Leiper as proprietor and occupier of 'Stobieside or Drumboy', suggesting that the name of the farm may have been changed at some point. (Could Drumboy be a mistranscription of Drumclog?)

It's unusual to find a farm owned by the farmer - most farmers were tenants. Interestingly there are also John and Robert Leiper listed as proprietors of single farms or houses, and Andrew, James, Mrs and possibly another John Leiper as tenants of other farms.

If I were looking for earlier references to a place, I would go for the Registers of Sasines, which are the records of transfers of ownership of land. See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=26232.0

The index to the Lanarkshire Registers of Sasines 1720-1780 mention several Leipers in Strathaven (the older name for Avondale) but none mention Stobieside.

The National Library of Scotland has the most extensive and readily accessible range of old maps, but the British Library also has a map collection, including at least one that I know of that isn't in the NLS, so there are very likely to be more. Though I think that what you really need is to find out when Stobieside was first sold, and then look for estate plans either prepared for the sale, or for rental and estate records before the sale.

Drumclog is listed as the property of the Duke of Hamilton, so I would imagine that Stobieside was originally also part of his estates.

The Statistical Account of the parish, written in 1793, is interesting background reading. https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/viewer/osa-vol9-Parish_record_for_Avondale_in_the_county_of_Lanark_in_volume_9_of_account_1/

Among other comments it says that the Duke of Hamilton is the feudal superior of the whole parish, and proprietor of about a third of it; and that there are many small proprietors ('heritors'). I wonder whether the Hamilton Estates sold off small parcels of land at some point before 1855? Perhaps Stobieside was split off from Drumclog at such a time?

According to the National Register of Archives for Scotland https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrasregister/welcome.aspx most of the estate records of the Dukes of Hamilton and Brandon are privately held, though some earlier ones are in the National Records of Scotland.

[RJ_Paton]

James Dorrett's 1750 map of Scotland (also on the NLS) has far more detail but from a quick search no sign of Stobieside or even Stobbyside as it is on a much later 19th century map. (Although spelling pre 20th century isn't set in stone.)

 I wonder (as does Forfarian) if perhaps they purchased an existing farm and renamed it or created a new farm from several others - This was at a time when the Lowland Clearances were yet to reach their peak (1760 - 1830) with many smaller units done away with in favour of larger (and more profitable) ones.

Added The first meaningful map of Scotland, in modern terms, was started in the early 1800's but not published until 1832 and even some of that content was copied from earlier publications. prior to that maps were created for a specific purpose (eg Roys maps - to thwart any future uprisings), or were sponsored by major landowners wanting to know the extent of their holdings, or were more general maps financed by subscriptions from the public or landowners.

[GR2]

In the 1797-8 Farm Horse Tax Rolls it appears as "Stabuside". It is not mentioned by name in the 1694 Hearth Tax Roll.

The sasines will probably provide early references. Might also be worth looking to see if there is any passing reference in the minutes of the kirk session.