Author Topic: John Whitaker and Mary Ashworth -Newchurch, Rossendale. Help please.  (Read 1137 times)

Offline Pennines

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Re: John Whitaker and Mary Ashworth -Newchurch, Rossendale. Help please.
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 13 March 22 16:14 GMT (UK) »
Well flippin' 'eck, Footo -- you know an awful lot about your area, probably more than the people who point out your accent!
Places of interest;
Lancashire, West Yorkshire, Southern Ireland, Scotland.

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John Whitaker and Mary Ashworth -Newchurch, Rossendale. Help please.
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 13 March 22 21:58 GMT (UK) »
Firstly, Colin I think you are more likely to be right about the family from Haslingden even though this would make James 13 years older than Ann. I have the baptism of Ann Lord as 16 May 1773

The age of the James Whitaker you first found would be a better fit (23 Oct 1774) to the John and Mary of Edgeside, but the 6 April 1760 James from Haslingden does have merit as John and Mary married at the end of 1759 and the children start arriving. There are definitely family names there and the fact there is a Henry Whitaker also fits with one being a witness at James and Ann's wedding in 1794.

I'm of the opinion that the children baptised at St. Mary, Haslingden were more likely to have belonged to another man /other men named John Whitaker who lived in Haslingden parish and who had wives named Mary.
 2 possible candidates were:

Marriage 2nd April 1759 St. James, Haslingden
John Whitaker & Mary Heap, "both of this chapelry"

Marriage 14th September 1759 St. Mary the Virgin, Bury
John Whitaker, clothier, Haslingden Chapelry
Mary Holden, Bury
A witness was Henry Whitaker. Married by licence.
There may be a marriage bond in Lancashire Archives. Online catalogue has index to marriage bonds.

The only baptisms at St. Mary, Haslingden I found which may have been children of either or both above couples are the ones already posted by Colin and me.
There was also another John & Mary in Haslingden who lived at Henheads before and after marriage (1740) and had children in 1740s.


I have found a Mary Whitaker in baptised 28 Nov 1772 in Constable. This is more than 5 years after John is born in Rakefoot. Would they have been far from one another? Also, it seems strange that Henry is born in Heald yet everyone else is born in Rakefoot? I'm not sure he is one of theirs.

John & Mary Whitaker and their children baptised at St. Mary, Haslingden, Elizabeth (bapt. July 1761), Alice (2nd Dec. 1764) and John (22 Feb. 1767) lived at Rake Foot in Musbury. It was a different Rake Foot to the one near Rawtenstall on the map in Footo's reply #17. The nearest town to Rake Foot in Musbury is Haslingden. The nearest church was St. Mary, Haslingden until Musbury and Haslingden Grane got their own churches (St. Thomas, St. Stephen) in 19th century. Musbury township was on the border of Bury and Haslingden parishes and has switched parishes during its' existence. 
Info & map on GENUKI
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Musbury/

Rake Foot in Musbury on the 1844 map looks like a farm. It's west of Helmshore village and south of a reservoir.  Holden Wood is to the east. Holden Hall and Holden Mill are north of Holden Wood. A John & Mary lived at Holden when Henry, their son was baptised at St. Mary, Haslingden, 1770. 2 Priestentax farms are north of the Holden settlement. Priestentax was abode of a John & Mary when James, their son was baptised at Haslingden, April 1760. There may have been 1 John & Mary Whitaker who moved between Priestentax, Rake Foot and Holden 1760-1770 or there may have been 2 or 3 couples in that area. Spacings of baptisms suggest 1 couple.
Map Lancashire Sheet LXXI surveyed 1844-5
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102343976
Enlarge map to find Rake Foot. There's also a track named Stony Rake.

I agree that Henry of Heald, baptised at Newchurch, August 1765 doesn't fit with with the family who lived at Rake Foot, Musbury and who had their children baptised at Haslingden. Also, the gap between baptisms of Alice and Henry was too short if those families were accustomed to getting their children baptised as young babies.
A better fit for Henry of Heald was the family who had John 1760, and Betty 1767 baptised at Newchurch; abode for all was Heald.  Bacup didn't have a parish church until 1788 although it had Non-conformist chapels.

Baptisms and marriages transcriptions from Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website
www.lan-opc.org.uk

Added. Rake Foot in Musbury and Priestontax were a bit over 1 mile (or 2km.) apart. The Holden area is between them.
 

 
Cowban

Offline RyanUK

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Re: John Whitaker and Mary Ashworth -Newchurch, Rossendale. Help please.
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 13 March 22 22:52 GMT (UK) »
My Tattersall family were from same place.
Hey Head, Stacksteads.
Acrehill, Edgeside.
Lolly Mile, Newchurch.
Boothfold.
They married in to the
Hacking & Kibble families.
My earliest ancestor is:
Henry Tattersall (Mason)
B. Abt 1787, Newchurch
D. 28 Apr 1834, Edgeside
Married: Mary
Children:
James Tattersall
B. 21 Dec 1832, Edgeside
D. Feb 1903, Haslingden
Married: Mary Ann Hacking
15 Jul 1855, St Nicholas Church,
Rossendale.

From the advice and comments above I will myself need to look into the Manchester archives at the St Nicholas Church records to get more information.

There is an Ann Whittaker living with my 3x great grandparents James Tattersall & Mary Ann Hacking in the 1861 census.
She were B. 1840, Newchurch.
I mention this as an example of the dense families and their connections.
Brinsley -
(marple, derbyshire)

Dace -
(cannock, staffordshire)
(altrincham, cheshire)
(detroit, michigan)(canada)(usa)

Longson -
(derbyshire)

Tattersall -
(rossendale, lancashire)

Townley -
(livesey, blackburn, lancashire)
(greater manchester)

Winfindale -
(burton upon trent, staffordshire)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John Whitaker and Mary Ashworth -Newchurch, Rossendale. Help please.
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 13 March 22 22:57 GMT (UK) »
He has a sister Prudence baptised 17 Mar 1799 again at St Nicholas. She dies aged 5 with a burial on 4 Jan 1805 at St Nicholas. The parish record also says Manchester but I've never understood that.


Abode for baptism or burial of a child usually meant abode of the father. He may have moved to Manchester for work and left Prudence behind with relatives.
There were other local Whitaker burials with Manchester abode.
St. James, Haslingden, 18th. March 1789  John, son of Robert & Alice
St. Nicholas, Newchurch, April 1790 John Whitaker abode Cheetham Hil near Manchester
St. Nicholas, Newchurch, 21st. Nov. 1824 John Whitaker age 86 abode Manchester
Cowban


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John Whitaker and Mary Ashworth -Newchurch, Rossendale. Help please.
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 13 March 22 23:22 GMT (UK) »
My Tattersall family were from same place.
Hey Head, Stacksteads.
Acrehill, Edgeside.
Lolly Mile, Newchurch.
Boothfold.

My earliest ancestor is:
Henry Tattersall (Mason)
B. Abt 1787, Newchurch
D. 28 Apr 1834, Edgeside


From the advice and comments above I will myself need to look into the Manchester archives at the St Nicholas Church records to get more information.


Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website has transcriptions of baptism, marriage and burial registers from early 1600s until end 20thC./21st C. with gaps and illegible entries in 1600s.
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Rossendale/Newchurch/index.html
There was a Methodist chapel in 18th century and a Unitarian chapel in 19thC.
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John Whitaker and Mary Ashworth -Newchurch, Rossendale. Help please.
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 13 March 22 23:50 GMT (UK) »

 When our  Edmund marries he calls his children James, Margaret Ann, Edmund (again my line), John, Elizabeth, John Munn and James.
The eldest James dies and is buried at St Nicholas, John Munn (1844) and James (1848) are baptised at Holy Trinity in Tunstead. Other than those Baptisms everything happens at St Nicholas through the generations. The  mother of these children Margaret is an Irish Catholic.


Holy Trinity, Tunstead opened 1840.

Where did John's middle name Munn come from?
There were 2 Munn marriages which may be relevant.

4th. Nov. 1766 St. Nicholas, Newchurch
Dugald Munn, parish of Manchester
Margaret WHITAKER, Broadclough in this Chapelry
Dugald is a Scottish name.
They had a daughter, Jennet, baptised at St. Nicholas 1767, abode Newhallhey. I think that will be New Hall Hey, Rawtenstall. It's near the modern Rawtenstall railway station.

6th Dec. 1797 St. Mary, Radcliffe
John Munn, gentleman, Newchurch in Rossendale
Betty Huck, this parish
Witnesses James WHITAKER, William Harrison
By licence.

Radcliffe is between Bury and Manchester. Bury is south of Rawtenstall.
When and where did Edmund Whitaker marry? 
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John Whitaker and Mary Ashworth -Newchurch, Rossendale. Help please.
« Reply #24 on: Monday 14 March 22 00:39 GMT (UK) »
Now the Munn connection is getting interesting.


Where did John's middle name Munn come from?
There were 2 Munn marriages which may be relevant.

6th Dec. 1797 St. Mary, Radcliffe
John Munn, gentleman, Newchurch in Rossendale
Betty Huck, this parish
Witnesses James WHITAKER, William Harrison
By licence.


These seem to be children of the marriage, all baptised at St. Nicholas, Newchurch, Margaret 1798, Robert 1800, John 1802, James 1804. Abode was Holt Mill. It's about a mile out of Rawtenstall, almost at Waterfoot, just before the junction with the road to Newchurch.

Marriage 14th. September 1854 St. Thomas, Musbury
Robert Munn, full age, bachelor, cotton manufacturer, abode Newchurch
Margaret Alice Turner, age 18, spinster, Flax Moss House
Groom's father John Munn, Merchant & manufacturer
Bride's father William Turner, Merchant & manufacturer
Married by licence.

I wonder if Robert was son or grandson of the John Munn who married at Radcliffe in 1797.
 
There's an old topic about Flax Moss House on RootsChat.
William Turner, (1793-1852) owner of mills in Helmshore, built Flax Moss House in Haslingden. He had 11 daughters and no sons. One of the mills, built 1820s is Whitaker's Mill. 
https://wikimili.com/en/Helmshore_Mills_Textile_Museum

This may be a big red herring.
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John Whitaker and Mary Ashworth -Newchurch, Rossendale. Help please.
« Reply #25 on: Monday 14 March 22 01:30 GMT (UK) »

Marriage 14th. September 1854 St. Thomas, Musbury
Robert Munn, full age, bachelor, cotton manufacturer, abode Newchurch
Margaret Alice Turner, age 18, spinster, Flax Moss House
Groom's father John Munn, Merchant & manufacturer
Bride's father William Turner, Merchant & manufacturer
Married by licence.

I wonder if Robert was son or grandson of the John Munn who married at Radcliffe in 1797.
 

Probably grandson.
Robert Munn was baptised at St. Mary, Prestwick 1832, son of John & Alice, abode Broughton. He had a younger brother Dugald (an earlier generation Dugald married in Newchurch 1766).
John Munn married Alice 1831.
John Munn the younger was in partnership with Robert, his elder brother. Robert looked after the business in Rossendale and lived there while John oversaw their concerns elsewhere.
www.bacuptimes.co.uk/index_htm_files/Heath%20Hill%20House.pdf
To complicate the Munn-Whitaker connections further, Robert and his wife named a son Robert Whitaker Munn, and Elizabeth, their daughter married a John Whitaker of Broadclough Hall.   
Cowban

Offline tillyann

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Re: John Whitaker and Mary Ashworth -Newchurch, Rossendale. Help please.
« Reply #26 on: Monday 14 March 22 03:00 GMT (UK) »
Hi Maidenstone,
Firstly I'll address the Munn question.
The Munns were very well known and respected in the area. They owned mills so they provided income to the people. When I was in the UK in 2013 I was talking to the Church Warder and he told me that the Munns and the Whitakers worshipped at Holy Trinity. He said the Munns were the original benefactors of the church -particularly James Munn. He also told me that the Whitaker- Munn connection was through the Munns raising a Robert Whittaker.
I think the middle name Munn for John was more of a tribute to the Munns rather than a family connection. They had already lost a son called John and it may just have been to differentiate.
The Whitakers in our line are tailors and millworkers they are often married to Irishwomen, some served in the militaty and from what I can tell they were dirt poor.
Any connection to the Munns would have been very loose.
Whittaker (originally from Newchurch, Rossendale then Manchester) and Seel (Manchester).