Author Topic: Bertrude Joyce Gordon (also posted on Kent board. See link in main body)  (Read 1054 times)

Offline osprey

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Re: Bertrude Joyce Gordon (also posted on Kent board. See link in main body)
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 16 March 22 16:16 GMT (UK) »
Mabel died before Cecil George, his death in 1985

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:66HN-3VGD

Mabel died in 1968, her burial
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPWT-6HJD
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline Annette7

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Re: Bertrude Joyce Gordon (also posted on Kent board. See link in main body)
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 16 March 22 19:43 GMT (UK) »
Seem to have been a lot of 'fibs' told by both Mabel and her mother.   Mabel clearly not married to a Gordon when she had Bertrude, nor was her maiden name Armstrong.

As already stated, Mabel Gordon Broman birth Mar.qtr.1889 - however, her mmn was given as Armstrong but that's a fib too as should have been Bull.

Going further back - Margaret Bull married John Armstrong Dec.qtr.1865 Isle of Wight - she would only have been 16 as her birth was in Dec.qtr.1849!!

Her husband was a soldier and a son baptised 1871:

Ffolliotte Charles Armstrong bp.19/4/1871 Allahabad, Bengal, India son of John Charles Armstrong and Margaret.  (He appears to have reversed his names as an adult).

Daughter Ivy's birth already posted - born in Ireland and mmn Bull.

Son George W. is said to have been born in Jersey.

Then comes Mabel born after Margaret had married Alfred J. Broman in 1888.   Correctly registered as Broman although mmn wrong i.e. not Armstrong.   She was baptised as Mabel Warren (?) Broman 4/6/1889 Carisbrooke, da. of Alfred and Margaret.   Unfortunately, I can only view a transcription so 'Warren' may well have been incorrectly transcribed.

In 1891 Alfred shown as married but Margaret not with him (with a dau. Bessie and her child).  She is listed on Ancestry as Margaret Brooman, married, with her 4 children but Mabel listed like the others as Armstrong!!

Later Margaret reverts back to her first married name of Armstrong.   Her second husband Alfred John Broman actually died in 1910 Breconshire.   His daughter Bessie and her son are in Wales 1911.

So, bit of a carryon here not helped by the fibs told by both Mabel and her mother Margaret.

Annette 

Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Annette7

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Re: Bertrude Joyce Gordon (also posted on Kent board. See link in main body)
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 16 March 22 19:49 GMT (UK) »
Seem to have been a lot of 'fibs' told by both Mabel and her mother.   Mabel clearly not married to a Gordon when she had Bertrude, nor was her maiden name Armstrong.

As already stated, Mabel Gordon Broman birth Mar.qtr.1889 - however, her mmn was given as Armstrong but that's a fib too as should have been Bull.

Going further back - Margaret Bull married John Armstrong Dec.qtr.1865 Isle of Wight - she would only have been 16 as her birth was in Dec.qtr.1849!!

Her husband was a soldier and a son baptised 1871:

Ffolliotte Charles Armstrong bp.19/4/1871 Allahabad, Bengal, India son of John Charles Armstrong and Margaret.  (He appears to have reversed his names as an adult).

Daughter Ivy's birth already posted - born in Ireland and mmn Bull.

Son George W. is said to have been born in Jersey.

Then comes Mabel born after Margaret had married Alfred J. Broman in 1888.   Correctly registered as Broman although mmn wrong i.e. not Armstrong.   She was baptised as Mabel Warren (?) Broman 4/6/1889 Carisbrooke, da. of Alfred and Margaret.   Unfortunately, I can only view a transcription so 'Warren' may well have been incorrectly transcribed.

In 1891 Alfred shown as married but Margaret not with him (with a dau. Bessie and her child).  She is listed on Ancestry as Margaret Brooman, married, with her 4 children but Mabel listed like the others as Armstrong!!

Later Margaret reverts back to her first married name of Armstrong.   Her second husband Alfred John Broman actually died in 1910 Breconshire - probate shows he died 24/5/1910 in Asylum, Talgarth, Breconshire.  His home address given as 3 Portia Terrace, Swansea.  (He was a solicitors clerk which concurs with his 1891 census entry).   His daughter Bessie and her son are in Wales 1911.

So, bit of a carryon here not helped by the fibs told by both Mabel and her mother Margaret.

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline osprey

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Re: Bertrude Joyce Gordon (also posted on Kent board. See link in main body)
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 16 March 22 21:54 GMT (UK) »
From the army record for John Charles Armstrong, he signed up aged 18 in St Margaret's Middlesex 8 June 1863, place of birth Blennerville, Tralee. He was a schoolmaster at the time. His marriage is noted as 20 Oct 1865 to Margaret Bull in Carisbrooke.
1871 Army List shows him in Allahabad as Colour Sergeant in 104th Regiment of Foot, Bengal Fusiliers.
There's another baptism to the couple 22 April 1868 in Kurrachee (sic) for a daughter Lilian Minnie Maud - she died the following year in Peshawar of intermittent fever aged 1 year 9 months.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGV3-B9S
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb


Offline nannyj

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Re: Bertrude Joyce Gordon (also posted on Kent board. See link in main body)
« Reply #13 on: Friday 18 March 22 19:25 GMT (UK) »
marriage for Mabel in her birth name

Mabel Broman sept qtr 1932 Lymington to Cecil G James

Thanks. I think the Gordon father must be a porky pie? But I’m not sure how Mabel registered her as Gordon or gave her maiden name as Armstrong? It does sound like the right person, as I know she definitely married a Cecil.

Lymington fits with where her daughter Joyce’s husband’s family were from and where she met her husband. According to the family, the mum went off to South Africa with Cecil (I haven’t got worldwide membership to check this) and Joyce (Bertrude) stayed as she had already met her husband Harold George Curtis by then.

I’ve sent off for Joyce (Bertrude’s) birth cert. Hopefully have it tomorrow or Monday 🤞🏻
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Offline nannyj

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Re: Bertrude Joyce Gordon (also posted on Kent board. See link in main body)
« Reply #14 on: Friday 18 March 22 19:36 GMT (UK) »
Oops. Didn’t see all the other replies and replied prematurely. Just going through those now 🤪
Jamiesons, Martins and McGonigals of Coleraine, Londonderry
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Cullens, Grahams and Challenors of Dublin county and city.

Offline nannyj

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Re: Bertrude Joyce Gordon (also posted on Kent board. See link in main body)
« Reply #15 on: Friday 18 March 22 20:30 GMT (UK) »
Wow! That took a while to get my head around. Thank you to all of you. It certainly sounds as we have the right people. I wonder if Mabel will have carried on the fibs and given a fictitious father for Bertrude Joyce (who apparently was always known as Joyce … who can blame her? 🤣) I’ll find out and let you know when her birth cert arrives
Thank you all again. At least I can carry on backwards now that we have found Mabel’s parents.
Jamiesons, Martins and McGonigals of Coleraine, Londonderry
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Cullens, Grahams and Challenors of Dublin county and city.

Offline Mabel Bagshawe

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Re: Bertrude Joyce Gordon (also posted on Kent board. See link in main body)
« Reply #16 on: Friday 18 March 22 20:50 GMT (UK) »
Bit of history on Alfred Broman

1891 - suicide attempt in Swansea
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3721332/3721338/77/broman

Interested to work out who the brother in law is

Added: he's brother of wife no 2, who died in the IoW in 1887

Offline nannyj

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Re: Bertrude Joyce Gordon (also posted on Kent board. See link in main body)
« Reply #17 on: Friday 18 March 22 21:38 GMT (UK) »
Sad 😢
Jamiesons, Martins and McGonigals of Coleraine, Londonderry
and
Cullens, Grahams and Challenors of Dublin county and city.