Author Topic: Welsh place names in a will  (Read 902 times)

Offline Annbee

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Re: Welsh place names in a will
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 17 March 22 07:36 GMT (UK) »
Bluesofa, Gadget, Horselydown... Anyone :)

Gadget, you are right to correct the Bridge translation: I managed to turn Pont into a too-cute Ponty :)

Thanks all of you for the maps, they have has helped me track down a house called Pont Yr Uchen, heritage listed today, and that may be the location. There is reference online to various names of "Pont-y-rychain",  "Pont-yr-ychain" or "Pont-yr-uchain Farm", Talycoed.

A new detective job: I have tracked down a second will made by the Uncle of this John Powell of the first will. Uncle leaves him not the Pont Yr Uchen house but I gather it is interest in another property at Llantillio (sic, their spelling) Pertholey. Uncle William, an Excise Officer, moved to Abergavenny from a place I cannot decipher. That is picture no 1. Something..."ford"? It says city and I haven't found a city ending in 'ford' in Wales. If he was an Excise Officer in the late 1700s I might suppose the City was a coastal city?

Pic no 2 is from Uncle William's will as well. As far as I can make out, Uncle is leaving this property at Llantillio to remain occupied by two ironmongers called John Straker and John Lewis. (Straker is still occupying land when John Powell dies 2 decades later). The only reference in Uncle's will that connects John Powell to inheriting the property is this section and the side ^ insertion on the side of the will. So it reads "...occupation of my brother ...^ John Powell to X? the same to them? the X? John Straker and ^...John Lewis their sons heirs? X? and X? for and during the term of five hundred years in years to be X? from the day of my death ETC"

The final pic is from John Powell's will where he mentions the Llantillio Pertholey property at "X? in the said county of Monmouth"?

I also have trouble reading that first line describing "Copyholds X? or Tenements? Gardens Lands hereto ETC"
Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON

Offline Gadget

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Re: Welsh place names in a will
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 17 March 22 08:28 GMT (UK) »
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Offline bluesofa

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Re: Welsh place names in a will
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 17 March 22 08:33 GMT (UK) »
I was just about to say the same thing.  I also can't find a city ending in 'ford' in Wales, so if it is 'ford' then it may not be in Wales, also leading me to hereford.

It is possible to find an Excise Officer in the City of Hereford in 1856 - see Robert Coats here: http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/306679/rec/6

However, I don't know if there would be Excise Officers there before the building of the Herefordshire and Gloucestershire Canal.

Offline Gadget

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Re: Welsh place names in a will
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 17 March 22 08:39 GMT (UK) »
I had cousins living near Abergavenny and Hereford was regarded as close by . It's very close to the border and is a large settlement.  The Severn and Wye are navigable*,. As far as I recall, Excise  officers  were not required to live on the coast. 

* add to at least Gloucester and beyond

Quote
Hereford (/ˈhɛrɪfərd/ (audio speaker iconlisten))[citation needed] is a cathedral city, civil parish and the county town of Herefordshire, England. It lies on the River Wye, approximately 16 miles (26 km) east of the border with Wales, 24 miles (39 km) southwest of Worcester, and 23 miles (37 km) northwest of Gloucester. With a population of 60,800,[2] it is by far the largest settlement in Herefordshire.
An early town charter from 1189 granted by Richard I of England describes it as "Hereford in Wales".[3] Hereford has been recognised as a city since time immemorial, with the status being reconfirmed as recently as October 2000.[4][5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford
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Offline Gadget

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Re: Welsh place names in a will
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 17 March 22 08:48 GMT (UK) »
Just found this

Quote
3. Report of the Comrs of Excise to the Lords of the Treasury, on the petition of Thomas Clarke, a collector of Excise in the counties of Hereford and Worcester, stating that he was indebted 2,091l. 19s. 10d., and that they had caused him to be sued, and were of opinion that they ought so to have done. Undated.
Also an order in Council and his petition.
Minuted:—“19th Apr. 1700. Agree wth the report.” 5 pages.


https://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-treasury-papers/vol2/pp381-395
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Offline Annbee

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Re: Welsh place names in a will
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 17 March 22 08:52 GMT (UK) »
Gadet and Bluesofa, I think you are right. I looked at a list of cities ending in 'ford' and Hereford is the only one I found to fit. And yes Herefordshire and Worcestershire and Monmouthshire (and all the bordering counties) have/had a lot of toing and froing over the centuries. I originally come from Worcestershire. The route from ports and from, say, London would pass through those English counties. Interestingly (or not!) the woman whose portrait compelled this research I was told was a merchant who would travel through Worcester. Here's the portrait of her. She must've been a go getter in 1810! I'm researching for a very ill friend, trying to solve the mystery of the portrait (her family didn't know her full name or much about her).
Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON

Offline Gadget

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Re: Welsh place names in a will
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 17 March 22 09:14 GMT (UK) »
A very fine portrait. Powell, as you probably know is a Welsh surname which derives from the patronymic  ap Hywel (son of Hywel)

A personal aside -

I was born and grew up in North Wales and was in secondary school from 1956 to 1963.  My first atlas for Geography was Philip's Modern Atlas of Wales and Monmouthshire.I still have it.

 ;D
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Offline Annbee

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Re: Welsh place names in a will
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 17 March 22 09:25 GMT (UK) »
Also, not this Powell family, but my own was heavily involved in river transportation in the early 1700s right through to early 1900s - so I can see Hereford would be a river city 'port' as it were.The River Wye is close to the River Severn etc. I've read that smuggling was rife on boats, so again another reason Excise might be needed inland. Although Excise isn't necessarily to do with Customs in the early days.... Perhaps coincidentally but I like to imagine it was nepotism, the Excise Uncle's nephew' John's son-in-law, who was an impoverished Gentleman most of his life (he didn't appear to work either) ended up in Australia his final ten years - working in Customs! I will add that nephew John, of the other Will , was in the Royal Navy, a surgeon in the late 1700s... So maybe it was nepotism   ;D
Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON

Offline Annbee

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Re: Welsh place names in a will
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 17 March 22 09:33 GMT (UK) »
Gadget, lucky you growing up in Wales. When I was a child in Worcester, I wished I'd been born just a little bit more West so I'd have a lovely lilting accent - and be able to sing,!     Yes, I knew about ap' Hywel/Howell/Powell. That was all that was on the back of the picture. That, the date of portrait and one other family name. Now I have a good swag of stories I am writing up for my friend and her family. They didn't know they had so much Welsh history - they identify with being European Jewish. They'll love this.         
Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON